You know - I am pissed

Is that a problem for you?

 

Re: Re: Re: You know - I am pissed

My cards not only say "Merry Christmas", but "A Blessed New Year". Just in case the point isn't underscored enough, there is also a picture of Santa Claus, holding an American flag.

 

Oh come on. Nobody but a few Calvinists and generic fundies does that Halloween McCarthyism. Roman Catholics don't. Liberal Protestants don't. Orthodox don't. Lutherans surely don't. Don't tar us with that kind of brush.

It's really funny how if one Christian does something they all get tarred with it, but nobody dare generalise antireligious bigoted propaganda as though it were the work of all nonreligious persons--which it most certainly is not.

Civility to all, and bullsh*t tolerance to none!

And best wishes to Mr Engineer who started this thread.







Vigilance against trolls and wreckers!

 

Caption to a cartoon in a magazine- a postal patron to the clerk, "Do you have any non-religious Christmas stamps?"

I'm part of that most oppressive and demonic demographic in existence- the bald, fat, middle-aged, republican, hetero-white guy. Somehow, being a member of this group means being insensitive, uncaring, and the only correct target for jokes.

I have a very diverse clientele- Buddhists, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, atheists, etc. I may have a Scientologist or two as well. I wanted to acknowledge the holiday, but I realize the religious aspect, while appreciated by some, would not be appreciated by others. While I celebrate my traditions, I also like to learn about and celebrate other traditions as well (a celebration is a celebration). Why limit myself to just my own traditions?

I am sure there are those that would think my attitude is repugnant and should not be allowed to exist. It was hard to come to grips with the realization that I will always be wrong in such a "correct" environment.

I feel if Dickens were alive today, he would be spinning in his grave (It just seemed like a very Yogi Berra-ish thing to say). Christmas is no longer a time of good cheer and good will towards men (and women and children). It has become a crass consumer display. Instead of relaxing and enjoying friends and family, it has become a time of tempers and out-doing the Joneses. Yesterday, I heard two women going at each other in a parking lot over a parking space, when there was another one 10 feet away. So much for give and take, being nice to one another, etc. Conversations I've overheard indicate the concern of underspending or overspending on a gift for a friend. Concern being a nice way to put it. It was more of an accounting exercise. Xmas has become a secular holiday- one which now starts shortly after labor day.

A way to defuse the contentious situation of whether or not to use "Christmas" in adverts or to not brutally force one's traditions on others is to change the name of the holiday to "Winter Spending Frenzy Day," or WSFD for those that prefer abbreviations. It would be more descriptive of the attitude and practices displayed, and it will remove the religious aspects that worry sensitive people. It would also allow those that wish a quiet/personal celebration to do so without having to worry about becoming a target of those that have no tolerance for anything outside their narrow view of propriety- whatever that may be.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. However, he is no longer relevant today. People are more concerned about how others will perceive them, the "gifting" ettiquette in corporate America, and how much they can extend the holiday season before Labor Day to maximize Black Friday receipts."

 

Festivus - For The Rest Of Us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

Jack

 

The Holidays are more about tradition than religion, period.

Santa Claus and the Christmas tree are about as religious symbols as a football trophy.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

 

Happy Kwanzaa, everyone!

 

Mr. Dickens would very likey be EXTREMELY upset if he were alive and woke to find himself spinning in a grave!

Have a great Christmas.

Dave

 

Gotta nail down sime distinctions for you, Rich.

First, regarding "the Rightwing is pulling a 'strawman' argument" - echoed above by Rich's claim "no one is trying to hijack Christmas" - that's in all the MSM lately, this is really a case of Lefties looking at every river and seeing DeNile reflected by the water. If you only have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, to employ a different metaphor,

I know it's no strawman because ten years ago Boulder, Colorado went through several years of uproar over the Top Down imposed elimination of all Christmas songs from the beloved High School music show every December - a proud senior highlight event when I was in high school myself. The only resolution was found thru the state law liberalizing charter school formation and the locals siezing advantage from it, taking their busness away from Educrat-Nazis - which means the PS superintendent now regards Charter Schools as the Devil. (This matters in a high-tech, university higher ed and government labs driven town where so many residents expect a lot for their kids.)

That was then. Now and lately it's businesses ducking the facts of life like the one where the US really is a Christian nation, and the MSM and the schools and all the peevish Left who've lost their utopias keep inflicting their fantasies on the rest of us. I know this is true - first because I'm an atheist, and second because a recent opinion Dynamics poll showed that 95% of us - me not included - celebrate Christmas. Whatever made the Left so ^*@#%?! anti-Democratic? It's like they lose a few elections and they then refuse to even respect playing the game!

Next, Rich invokes sentimental concerns about including the 5% who don't celebrate Christmas: " Saying "happy holidays" to someone is inclusive, not exclusive." It doesnt' exclude Christmas; it includes other people...." This is the same PC the rest of us find revolting mind control, the one that sees professional victimhood whenever "inclusion" is lacking - whatever that might be (hint: it is another utopia, ie, "nowhere").

Iv'e got new for you and your victim friends: GET OVER IT! I sure am.

As an old prof of English history of mine at the University of Minnesota once said: "There is no right not to be offended." PC attempts to square circles and make silk purse out of rude sows ears, It's an offensive obsession.

Finally, what the non-PC/weeping 'victims'/Left sees in the war on Christmas is an attempt to vitiate a common cultural property.

I hear and see various (Left or not) secularists argue that Christians don't understand the pagan roots of Christmas trees - they do everything but confront the historically obvious fact that the way we in the US celebrate Christmas today descends from the later 19th century Victorian era. Why is this important? Three points explain it.

First, only in tim of a rising middle class and the general spread of wealth could people afford to give gifts annually as a collective, shared event. When people were poorer, they couldn't afford this luxury. (Cf, "The Gift of The Maji") Under Christian humanism this became the new norm (Cf, Dicken's "Christmas Carol" - which the author intended as a veiled attack on a more miserly and dour evangelical form of Christianity during his time). Hence, our accepted materialism that people are still ambivalent about. But his was then a remarkable triumph of humanity.

Like we saw in the outpouring of generosity last year after the South Asian Tsunami, only the great benefits of wealth we have created allows us to respond with massive help, care, and kindness to instant tragic plight - and anyone who says "that's bad" can please go to Hell, as far as this atheist is concerned.

Second, President Grant made Christmas a federal holiday in 1876 - the Victorian era, which also yielded a host of other benefits through rising wealth. Crimes rates fell for two generations; child labor was abolished because it was no longer necessary. (Yes, it wasn't because the All mighty state outlawed it - that merely sealed the reality.) Likewise with literacy. State schooling only became mandatory AFTER literacy among the young was already enjoyed because parents already saw to it that basic educational needs were highly valued. Helath and life expectancy increased as well because of growing wealth.

Third, Christianity practices proseltyizing to their "enemies" - which means talking to others - because as Jesus taught enemies can be turned into friends. From this art of "talk," or exegis, and through the Christian quest for the Truth - because "The Truth will Set You Free" - we get science, democracy, and freethought leading to atheism. Yes - Christianity, uniquely in the world, created the atheistic tradition as a reaction to its failure to prove the exitence of God. Would that all world religions would proselytize instead. If they did, there would be no GWOT, and there would be more Peace On Earth as John Bear wishes for.

Plainly, each and every one of these three features in our heritage of Victorian Christmas tradition is hated by the Left. Either each one is wrong, they say, or else each claim must be dimminished by comparision.* Thus, the War on Christms is a real and substantive extension of the Culture Wars that have raged periodically for ten to fifteen years. But instead of clarity about these facts and claims and real debate about the validity of each one we get dumb blanket DeNile from the Left. I cannot respect dishonesty and blindness about these facts about our Christmas heritage.

-orson
-----------------
*3$bill (above) lapses into this dimminishment by comparison - overlooking the fact that Japan's "toleration" of other religions is in the context of a very xenophobic and ethnocentric dominant culure. Hence, the growth of alterntives to Shintoism are almost exclusively among exluded ethnic groups: Koreans, Chinese, Philipinos, etc.

 

America is no more a "Christian nation" than it is a "white nation." The USA is a pluralistic nation, founded upon the principle that all are equally free.

I celebrate christmas, and I'm not a christian. Who knew that by putting up a tree and giving my family presents I was helping to make my country a christian nation?
As for you knowing the US is a christian nation because you're an atheist -

How is your statement any more valid than "Well I know it's not true - first because I'm (minority group X), and second because more than 50% of Americans celebrate Halloween"?

 

I restricted my comment to religious tolerance, as a comment on Mr. Engineer's claim. After living in Japan fifteen years I'm well aware of Japanese ethnocentricity. Orson is misinformed about the popularity of so-called New Religions among ethnic Japanese.