Fielding versus Touro

Tom,

I would love to know if you are a TUI grad or have had any sort of relationship with NCU, Hecht, or SCUPS in the past. Is this information you can divulge?

 

Bing,

Indeed, I have no issue with divulging my background and associations, along with my interest surrounding NCU, SCUPS, Dr. Hecht, or any new, marginally established online school.

Background and associations-

As discussed numerous times in previous post since 2002, I hold a PhD and MBA from Touro University along with a MS from University of Wisconsin and BS from International College, FL.

I also developed and teach a series of master's courses at Touro as part of the MS in Health Sciences - health informatics specialization. Additionally, I also serve on several doctoral committees.

Professionally, I have over 25 years of IT industry experience, performing both technical consulting and executive management duties. I currently serve as president and owner of a national IT consulting and professional services firm with several hundred consultants and engineers.

Through my professional and academic experience, company, employees, and associates, I have gained a good understanding surrounding various schools and graduate degree programs including online schools like Nova, Walden, Touro…etc, along with a host of other private and state schools across the country.

Association or interest related to NCU, SCUPS…and other online schools -

I have no past or current association, what so ever, with NCU, SCUPS or Dr. Hecht. My exposure to these schools and Dr. Hecht is only from my own dialog with HR professionals from several companies and organizations, what is shared within academic circles, individual observations, research, public records, and following the history surrounding these schools over time.

My interest in online education is largely related to my technical interests in online delivery methods and systems, along with the future of online education in terms of reputation, effectiveness and its potential to adequately develop employees and professionals. Accordingly, I have serious issue with less than wonderful schools (to use Dr. Bear's term), the increasing prevalence of degree mills, educational profiteering as a business, and those schools and actions that degrade the value of online education and real – legitimate degrees. I see a fork in the road for many new or marginally established schools (especially those clearly seeking profit). Basically, these schools can choose the more challenging road, which is focused clearly on quality education, legitimacy and the long-term interest of its students and their degrees; or they can head down the more easy and immediately lucrative path of marketing hype, false facades, questionable relationships and delivering education that has a marginal value, poor reputation, questionable degree recognition, and limited long-term benefit to the degree holder and employers. Accordingly, my objective is to strongly discourage new or marginally established schools away from the easy (make a quick buck) road and influence them toward the more difficult but educationally substantive and beneficial long-term path.

IMHO SCUPS and Dr. Hecht have steered toward the more questionable path on prior occasions; however, NCU now has the opportunity to take the preferred, but more difficult road this time around. Accordingly, I hope that Dr. Hecht chooses to take the high road, on behalf of NCU and its students, without dragging along SCUPS or his old baggage and financial interests.

If we successfully crackdown on degree mills and less than wonderful schools, and if the NCUs and other online schools (especially those in it mainly for a profit) hold firm on doing the right things, perhaps the perceived value and reputation of online education and degrees stand a good chance of improving dramatically.

That is everything…. I hope my background and overview help to clarify things.

Tom

 

Thanks, Tom. I always thought you had some tie with Touro. I had not previously seen it on the forum, though.

What are HR people saying about NCU and Hecht? I work at a Fortune 500 and the HR people here don't even have a clue where Northcentral is located.

Personally, I would not have too much of a differentiation between TUI and NCU. Neither do I draw too close of a relation between TUI and Touro College.

I really cannot say much about SCUPS. I never have applied there nor knew anyone who attended there. I guess keep up the work at these schools, Tom. If you see any issues that skirt accreditation standards let them know. If SCUPS is successful in their accreditation effort, whatever that maybe in the near future, then I think NCU and SCUPS are well on the right track. If SCUPS is not successful, I guess we will see the doctorate get back on there fast.

I really haven't seen much marketing from NCU at this time. I think they know they don't want to be like a UoP. I do recall the time when TUI was hitting the ads hard. Even Kristin Hurst commented on the heavy marketing at one point. She posted the comment on AED a while back.

 

Tom, those objectives are good ones and I also hope that online education continues to increase in value and respect.

 

response part 1 of 3

 

response part 2 of 3

Personally, I would not have too much of a differentiation between TUI and NCU. Neither do I draw too close of a relation between TUI and Touro College.

Bing....Here are a few things that I see as clear differences / differentiations, in no particular order:

1. The admission standards to the Master’s and PhD programs are largely different. For a master’s degree TUI requires an accredited bachelor’s degree with a minimum GPA of 3.0. For the PhD program, TUI requires an accredited master’s degree with a 3.4 GPA, written demonstration of solid professional skills and scholarship…etc. NCU appears to allow admission to either their master’s or PhD program, with only a bachelor’s degree and no clear minimum grade point average. Their may be a rare exception, but TUI does not accept degrees or course credits from unaccredited schools (for international students, a university approved by the government). NCU appears to have a rather open policy on acceptance of non-accredited degrees and credit, especially from SCUPS. I’m not aware of any students who have been accepted into TUI’s PhD program without an accredited master’s degree.
2. TUI has a much higher admission selectively level and process, especially for its PhD program in general. Acceptance into TUI’s PhD program is competitive since they have many more qualified applicants than they do openings each term. A selection committee reviews each applicant and ranks them accordingly. NCU appears to apply an open admissions policy to bring in as many students as possible. Has anyone been turned down for admission to NCU’s PhD program who had met the minimum admission requirements (accredited or unaccredited bachelor’s degree, no grade point minimum) for reasons other than loan denial or ability to pay? If so what percentage?
3. The course delivery format and pedagogy are quite different. TUI develops and delivers its course material and content via CDs or by live online courses, which are kept current with the latest reading material and content, and updated every term by faculty. TUI course assignments consist of a series of extensive case analyses and theory application (one for each module), session long projects that integrate and build on practical application, and threaded group discussions that enable dynamic interaction, sharing and exchange of experience, thought and questions among students. All require TUI PhD courses are delivered synchronously via Horizon Live. NCU appears to use a more static and standard syllabus and textbook approach, with the assignments consisting of reading chapters, answering a series of questions listed in the text and development of one or more essay papers for the course.
4. TUI’s terms are 12 weeks and have a definite start and end dates. Additionally, the course materials are covered and assignments accomplished during each structured two-week module interval with defined start and completion dates. Although flexibility and extensions may be granted on an individual basis, students do concurrently cover each modules course material, learn, engage with fellow students surrounding the material, and interact and receive instruction from their professors in accordance with each module’s delivery dates. NCU appears to have fixed start dates at the beginning of each month with no fixed or defined assignment due dates or term end dates. Based on this model, it does not appear that courses and material are delivered concurrently, nor do the interaction, instruction and material covered appear to occur concurrently as a class. This is a significant difference between schools. Not withstanding an argument that one approach or method is better than another (as presented here or in item 3), they are still very different and separate models.
5. TUI appears to require a greater number of credit hours for completion of a graduate degree. A TUI master’s degree requires a minimum of 44 credit hours. A PhD requires a minimum of 44 coursework (60 with leveling courses) plus the dissertation (between 16 min and 48 max) or 60 to 108 hours beyond a master’s degree. The dissertation hours are at a significantly reduced tuition rate. NCU requires 36 credit hours for a master’s degree. For a PhD, NCU requires only 81 credit hours beyond a “bachelor’s” degree, or just 27 hours of course work plus 24 hours for the dissertation, which is only 51 credit hours total beyond a master’s degree. Accordingly, there are significant differences in terms of the substance of the graduate degree programs.
6. A large percentage of TUI faculty are full-time. Nearly all faculty hold a doctorate or PhD; there are only a few exceptions, and they are highly experienced in their fields and typically in the process of completing their doctorates. All doctoral faculty and dissertation chairs hold PhDs and must have very extensive scholarly research and publication histories. Doctoral courses are taught by full-time faculty. TUI faculty are limited to just a handful of dissertation committees that they can chair or served as a member. All full-time faculty at TUI are required to actively participate in scholarly research and activities, publish and present at conferences. I’m not entirely clear surrounding NCU’s practices in these areas, but it seemed from my review of UMI/Proquest, that many of the dissertations from NCU were chaired by the same few faculty. I also see differences in terms of NCU Mentors (a significant number with master’s degrees) versus TUI Professors with PhDs/doctorates (nearly all faculty). TUI’s full-time professors (all with PhDs/doctorates) number in the hundreds; how many full-time professors with PhDs or doctorates at NCU? In all fairness, I do not clearly know enough about each of these aspects at NCU, but I’m willing to bet they are quite different between the two schools.
7. Perhaps arguably relevant, the TUI dissertation lengths are on par with a cross section of schools: NCU dissertation lengths are far below that that of TUI or any of the other schools examined. In fact, 40% of NCU dissertations were less than 100 pages, which is approximately four to eight times or more frequent than TUI and that of other schools. This is a big difference in terms of a PhD program product.
8. According to the NCA website, nearly all of NCU’s students are part-time graduates. The majority of TUI students are full-time. It also appears that TUI is many times the size of NCU, as is the faculty and related resources. TUI’s student body is proportionally distributed between bachelors and masters programs with a very controlled number of students in the PhD programs. According to the NCA website, NCU appears to target PhD and masters students, with less than 10% of its students in undergraduate programs.
9. TUI programs appear to focus more specifically, on business administration, health sciences, education, and computer science with a focused set of specialization offerings. NCU tends to focus on psychology, business and education with a very wide range of specializations.
10. TUI is non-profit, while NCU is for-profit.
11. TUI is a branch campus of (and owned by) a well established and respected brick and mortar college that include an ABA law school and professional accredited medical school. TUI faculty and students have access to resources associated with Touro College and its related schools. NCU’s only affiliation is with SCUPS, which holds no accreditation (not too long ago denied accreditation by DETC) and has a history of questionable relationships. Additionally, until recently, both SCUPS and NCU were closely held under the common ownership of Dr. Hecht. Although allegedly separate schools, NCU and SCUPS operate very closely including shared faculty, staff, administration, IT systems…etc and the have jointly promoted programs under the banner of NCU’s accreditation. I’m curious to know to what extent a financial separation truly exist between Dr. Hecht and SCUPS today, or if any closely held financial connections continue to exist by way of family ownership or other proxied financial interest or relationships. In any case, the legitimate affiliations, operational relationships, accreditations, and reputation of related entities are way different between the two schools.
12. Arguably of limited utility, TUI does hold IABCE accreditation. From what I understand from the chair of the school of business, TUI also intends to pursue AACSB accreditation. I’m not aware of any professional accreditations held by NCU or their direction in this area.
13. The online library services and research resources at TUI are very complete and they have full-time librarians. Additionally, TUI has access to the library services and facilities of Touro College, which include 17 brick and mortar libraries and other resources. From what I read, NCU has a part time librarian, with limited services and minimal access to external library resources.
14. TUI is approved and participates in Title IV financial aid programs. NCU has withdrawn from the program and cannot offer or accept federal student financial aid.

 

response part 3 of 3

Accordingly, the size, substance, structure, type of organizations, ownership, affiliations, financial resources, history, admission criteria, student enrolments, faculty, pedagogy, library and research services, collective resources, financial aid programs…etc are clearly different between TUI and NCU, which make the schools clearly different too. How are they alike? IMHO, they are both RA and offer 100 percent online PhD programs with no mandatory residencies (rubs many in academia the wrong way); they are somewhat recent to academia; they are comparably priced; and Rich doesn’t really care for either one of them <smile… just a little humor, Rich>. Although one might compare any two schools, I do not see where there is much to draw on in terms of similarities between TUI and NCU. In fact, it seems to me that the two schools attract and focus on different student segments; hence, they do not substantially compete for the same students. Therefore, I fail to understand the need to continuously compare and cast TUI in the same light as NCU. IMHO they are apples and oranges.


I really cannot say much about SCUPS. I never have applied there nor knew anyone who attended there. I guess keep up the work at these schools, Tom. If you see any issues that skirt accreditation standards let them know. If SCUPS is successful in their accreditation effort, whatever that maybe in the near future, then I think NCU and SCUPS are well on the right track. If SCUPS is not successful, I guess we will see the doctorate get back on there fast.

If they are doing things to skirt accreditation standards, then it is likely by design and constructed that way, so they would indeed know of the issue already. Accordingly, advising SCUP or NCU of the same is likely a mute point and wasted effort, as it will most certainly fall on deaf ears. However, illumination and discussion of such issues among NCU/SCUPS observers, students and others that have an interest in online education will send a far stronger signal to NCU/SCUPS (as it would any school) since it informs the education community, potential students, employers and others of concerns and possible issues, from which they can make more informed decisions. Additionally, it puts NCU/SCUPS (and other schools) on notice that issues might exist that something must be done to correct the problem. Therefore, NCU/SCUPS and others may indeed listen to a collective voice, correct issues, and exercise additional caution in the future. If not, they will simply end up defining themselves in the long-run; unfortunately, at the expense of students and the companies/organizations where they work.

In terms of SCUPS accreditation, I agree that it will be beneficial to both SCUPS and NCU if they can accomplish the same. However, based on the recent denial of accreditation by DETC, I assume they have a great deal of work to do in order to get there.

I really haven't seen much marketing from NCU at this time. I think they know they don't want to be like a UoP. I do recall the time when TUI was hitting the ads hard. Even Kristin Hurst commented on the heavy marketing at one point. She posted the comment on AED a while back. [/QUOTE]

I’m not sure of your point made or the association to my post. Additionally, I know nothing about Kristin Hurst, the context of her posts on AED, or substance/relevance of what she was saying. From my experience I have not observed any evidence of TUI over advertising, sending spam, intrusively marketing, or using anything other than appropriate and accurate marketing materials and reputable media resources. I haven’t seen that much marketing from NCU either.

Sorry for the extremely verbose explanation of my position, but I wanted to fully explain my responses to your comments. I do appreciate your position, observations and contributions too. I’m just trying to share as much as possible to better understand each others perspectives.

Now my eyes are crossed from writing in the small reply dialog box, and I'm out of breath.... <smile>

Tom

 

response part 3.5. of 3

Sometime folks do not always see or understand the common relationships between Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Pontiac...etc and General Motors either… but they are undoubtedly related, and to some extent one in the same, when rolled up to GM. Each division also has access to the financial horsepower, marketing, GM product brand, financing, warranty services, and parts manufacturing from GM as a whole.

--- I promise...this is the last part to my post ----

Tom

 

Tom,

Thanks for your excellent and informative critique contrasting TUI to NCU. They are definitely very disparate educational programs offering prospective students viable options based on their learning styles, immediate and long range goals and preferred method of instruction. Without a doubt, TUI is a "first class act" offering an accomplished faculty, outstanding library services as well as diverse modes of instructional formats. Having formal association with Touro College and its related school divisions definitely adds to the credibility of this school as well as the degrees earned. Although there are no residency requirements there is no doubt that TUI has implemented standards of academic competency that I am willing to bet exceed those of several other distance learning graduate schools.

NCU also has its advantages for students such as those who enjoy working at their own pace without the need to engage in online classrooms (I believe that NCU recently discontinued their policy requiring students to participate in weekly online discussions-I am open to correction). NCU's flexible course completion timeframes allowing students to commence another course as soon as one is completed, is a very unique policy. It enables students to expedite the completion of their learning plans. In addition, NCU's tuition is moderate and affordable especially in light of the fact that several major distance graduate schools are charging in excess of $4,000 a term even if one course is taken. I have also been informed by several students that the rigor of NCU's doctoral programs is demanding and considerable. In other words, in spite of an admission policy that is quite receptive to many applicants with varying levels of GPAs, these students must demonstrate doctoral level competency prior to be awarded a commensurate degree.

BTW Tom, have a happy and healthy holiday. Regards, Simon

 

Whew! The TUI shilling is getting deep in here and seems to be exceeding the NCU shilling I have seen in the past.

Frankly, I don't have any issues with either school. Both are fine.

 

Re: response part 2 of 3

I appreciated reading several of your points, Tom. I am in the dissertation proposal stage at TUI and as you know, it is really quite a serious endeavor. The only point I could add to your list is that although TUI is thought of as a non-traditional doctoral program, the only truly non-traditional thing about it is the delivery modality.

Happy Holidays,

Dave

 

simon

Yes, this is correct. A mentor may have a discussion requirement unique to their specific course however.

Also correct.

Craig

 

Bing,

I’m surprised that you invite responses to your specific questions and comments, and then you address and dismiss the same as shilling because the answers and responses evidently did not produce the information or results that you expected or wanted to see.

I went to significant effort to address your questions and respond to your comments in a very detailed, complete, accurate, and factual way. Now you say that my effort and response is shilling…what’s up with that?? Simon’s responses and comments were quite fair too, and he balanced his comments related to each school quite well. Therefore, I do not see how he is shilling either. In fact, Simon and I have history of strongly debating and disagreeing on issues surrounding these and other school.

If you intend to pose questions and comments to make certain points and elicit specific answers and responses from others in support of the same, then be sure to carefully research and study the underlying issues and facts in advance so that you can accurately anticipate what those answers and responses might (should) be. Accordingly, please don’t disrespect or discard the well intended, well researched and detailed answers and responses from others as simply shilling.

On a more appropriate note for today… a special best wishes to Simon, you and everyone on DI for a happy holiday season, and a safe and very rewarding new year. Now, it’s time for me to head off and recognize some of the holiday spirit and festivities….

Tom