Does an Elite College Really Pay?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by mfh, Dec 13, 2005.

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  1. mfh

    mfh New Member

  2. PhD2B

    PhD2B Dazed and Confused

    The following excerpt from the article is very interesting.

     
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I'd say 'yes' for on-campus undergraduates. Elite colleges typically have highly selective admissions. If you manage to get yourself admitted, you will find yourself surrounded by some very smart, inquisitive and stimulating people. And professors who teach to those kind of students are probably going to rise to the occasion, in a way that instructors teaching classes full of struggling students can't.

    And it's undeniable that famous professors can give impressive recommendations, while social friendships with fellow students who come from wealthy and powerful families can open up lots of networking opportunities.

    And I'd say 'yes' for on-campus graduate work as well. 'Elite' research universities become elite by hosting elite research. So attending schools where exciting things are happening increases the liklihood of participating in exciting things. When Ph.D.s are hired, often times it's by employers who need specialized expertise, not just a generic doctor. Having worked with big-names on important stuff helps.

    But for distance learning?

    I don't think that elite school names count nearly as much. That's because so many of the elite-university advantages are missing. The quality of instruction is typically lower since there's less classroom interaction and few if any labs or practicals. You probably won't have the stimulating social interaction with a highly selected student cohort. You probably aren't going to develop social friendships with the rich and powerful. You aren't likely to become a participant in discipline-changing research.

    And since DL students are mostly mid-career, even a diploma with a prestige name on it isn't going to knock many employers' socks off unless it's accompanied by a commensurate resume.
     
  4. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Re: Re: Does an Elite College Really Pay?

    You would be correct. The studies clearly stated that at graduate level name had much more to do with the ROI. Especially for the professions (MBA, law, MD etc).

    However, at the undergrad level the ROI was much less clear. Also, very few undergrads get taught by those famous profs the elites like to brag about.
     
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    In the case of law school, the answer is, "It depends."

    If the goal is to make a lot of money in securities law or M&A, Wall Street, in other words, the school "name" is crucial. Ditto, but to a somewhat lesser extent if the goal is to become a law professor at a national school. Ditto to an even lesser extent if the goal is to be a high level federal official.

    But if the goal is ANYTHING ELSE, name counts less than cost, IMHO. In other words, the ordinary run-of-the-mill law student probably should not choose his school on the basis of its name recognition UNLESS he can get LARGE grants and scholarships and incur little if any debt beyond living expenses.
     
  6. fortiterinre

    fortiterinre New Member

    The same article was discussed on this unruly thread. Nosborne, you have made my day, because I did a mental study of local attorney friends who seemed to take your advice. The law school in which I am most interested is a small state school that seems to have plenty of successful graduates and a very low cost.
     
  7. JassenB

    JassenB Member

    Law

    Thanks for this insight. Even though I still have two full semesters left at AMU for my MS, I am already starting the search for "what's next," and a JD is at the top of my list.

    I have no interest in practicing law, per se, but it would be a nice thing to have when it comes to my political activism and real estate/business dealings.

    I keep hoping that a DL bar-approved option will become available soon, but I'm not holding my breath. As such, the JD may never happen for me.

    Thanks for the thread!
    -Jassen
     
  8. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    Can anyone spell “DejaVu”?
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Why go to law school?

    I don't know that I would recommend bothering with a J.D. unless the student intends to practice, or maybe teach, law.

    The J.D. is a professional doctorate; it is designed to provide the academic (and some clinical) background necessary to enter the profession. Truth is, a J.D. program isn't very well suited to do anything else.

    It doesn't even provide the academic research and publication skills (not to mention grant money grubbing skills) that are identified with the Ph.D.

    There are a couple of D/L schools that offer 72 hour "non Bar" J.D. programs that are directed at business managers. Even if such a program is legitimate (and I will spare the Forum my heated opinions on THAT subject), I can't see that it would be very USEFUL.

    Law is constantly changing. If you don't keep up, which usually means, if you aren't in practice, you quickly become an expert on what the law USED to be. That's not only useless; it's positively DANGEROUS.

    I suppose that obtaining a J.D. would teach the student how to do legal research and prepare legal documents for himself but really, any business is going to have lawyers who certainly won't accept your legal work unexamined; in short, the real lawyers will redo everything the J.D. holding manager might have done. Failure to do so would be malpractice.

    There's also an argument that holding a law degree makes it easier to understand one's own lawyers. Maybe; but if your lawyer can't explain something to your lay satisfaction, get another lawyer because this one probably doesn't understand it himself. Law is arcane but it isn't rocket surgery.

    Finally, in some states (i.e. Arizona) it's illegal to list the J.D. degree on business cards or letterhead or advertising without being a member of the Bar unless you also include some sort of discalimer that you aren't a lawyer.

    A Ph.D. would be a better goal.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The following excerpt from the article is very interesting.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you are African American and your kid gets into Yale, do whatever you can to send him or her. Krueger and Dale found that black students get a bigger financial bang from a top-tier school. There is also some evidence that the same applies to students from economically disadvantaged backgrounds generally.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A former supervisor of mine in mental health has the last name "Ewoldsen." A number of year's ago, his nephew received a full scholarship to a college he applied to because the school thought he was a black from an African nation.
     
  11. agilham

    agilham New Member

    Er, are we allowed to know the name of the college Jimmy? Purely for the purposes of avoiding anywhere with administration with so little brain, you understand.

    I bet they were surprised when the kid showed up for freshman week ;-)

    Angela
     
  12. JassenB

    JassenB Member

    And I assume he wasn't actually black? :)

    -Jassen
     
  13. JassenB

    JassenB Member

    Re: Why go to law school?

    Thanks for the insights. Although a JD would be at the top of my list for the next great thing, the reason quoted above is also the number one reason why I'll probably never go to law school.

    As a matter of fact, since I have no interest in conducting original research, never want to be a professor, and care more about the practical application of information rather than the process of obtaining that information, anything beyond the Master's level is really not even on my radar.

    There is also a matter of practicality in the fact that I'm almost 28 years old and lack a true "profession" per se. I am geographically isolated from what used to be my profession (nuclear power) and have no desire to live in most of the places where I could re-enter that field, and location is more important to me than career/money....But money/profession has definitely crept up to number 2 now that I am divorced and don't have a sugar momma. :)

    The completion of my MS may be the end of the line, and my true profession may become something in the finance/accounting realm once I'm done at Excelsior.

    Ya'll take care!
    -Jassen
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Angela,

    I was told this more than seven year's ago, so I don't remember. I can find out. I need to call my old supervisor anyway because I have even forgotten the origin of his last name.

    Part of it "swinwicklian" or something like that.
     
  15. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    I did not want to get into this thread because it was perceived as a rehash of a subject that had already been discussed very passionately elsewhere. However, since then I have seen the level of quality of the debate and the direction it has taken I have decided to jump in anyway.

    It seems to me that the discussion is focusing on the benefit of attending an elite school at the graduate level. While this argument is correct, the fact that most people will not attend of finish graduate school must also be considered.

    For example, in my case I attended Law School but did not graduate. I would have been in real trouble if I would not have had a marketable undergraduate degree to fall back on. The fact that the school I attended is perceived as part of the elite here in Puerto Rico has opened many doors for me. Therefore, the investment of time and money made during my undergraduate years has really paid up.

    Just something to think about.
     
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    That's a good point and it reminds me of a similar point made by some author; many Ph.D. programs award the M.A. "along the way" but many do not. If the student fails to finish his dissertation, he has NOTHING but his original B.A. to "fall back on".
     
  17. lspahn

    lspahn New Member

    Schools carry cred. Period. If you went to Harvard, Yale, MIT and the like you will be recruited by people that want the best and brightest and know that cost money! Is there any statistics anywere that show how much more a person for an Elite school makes in comparison to someone from a mainstream university?
     
  18. JH50

    JH50 Member

    disregard
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2005
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Prestige=pay

    Statistics like average salaries for law school graduates are widely kept and available on line.

    And you are dead right; the school DOES count IF you are going for the money.

    Not everyone does and few of those who do end up being very happy about it. It's weird; money really isn't a long term motivation for most Americans.

    Too bad; if I were motivated by money, I'm sure I'd be better off financially by now! :D
     
  20. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    What Nosborne said!

    Furthermore, there is also a certain aura of prestige associated with going to an elite institution that many people whose primary concern is not money may find important.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2005

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