Harvard or Imperial?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by lchemist, Nov 18, 2005.

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  1. lchemist

    lchemist New Member

    Which degree is better, from a USA perspective, Harvard's ALM in Environmental Management (http://www.extension.harvard.edu/envr/ ) or The University of London MSc in Environmental Management ( http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/wye/enviro_mana/index.shtml ) (Imperial College)?\

    These are the courses at Harvard: (ten courses: four required courses, five electives, and a master's project.)

    Required Courses

    † ENVR E-101 Environmental Management I (H)
    † ENVR E-102 Environmental Management II (H)
    † ENVR E-120 Environmental Ethics and Land Management (H)
    ENVR E-200 Graduate Research Methods and Scholarly Writing in Environmental Management (H) (Not a distance class, but it is offered on Summers)

    Elective Courses

    † ENVR E-105 Strategies for Environmental Management (H)
    † ENVR E-110 Ocean Environments (H)
    † ENVR E-115 Introduction to Sustainable Development (H)
    † ENVR E-117 Sustainability: The Challenge of Changing Our Institutions (H)
    † ENVR E-130 Global Climate Change: The Science, Social Impact, and Diplomacy of a World Environmental Crisis (H)
    † ENVR E-150 Life Cycle and Risk Assessment (H)



    These are London's modules” (MSc: 10 modules (4 compulsory, 4 optional plus 2 research))

    Compulsory modules

    Introduction to environmental economics & policy (C70)
    Problem evaluation & solution (C62)
    Science of environmental change (C61)
    Either Environmental ethics (C63) or Environmental sociology (C69)

    Optional modules

    Either Environmental ethics (C63) or Environmental sociology (C69)*
    Corporate environmental management (C67)
    Environmental auditing (C108)
    Environmental impact assessment (C107)
    Environmental monitoring (C71)
    Environmental valuation (C22)
    International environmental law (C25)
    Land resource conservation (C68)
    NGO management (C32)
    Sustainable forest management (C85)
    Water resource management (C26)
    One module selected from another programme

    Research modules (MSc only)

    Research methods (C106)
    Research Report (R01)


    Harvard name may be better known in America but I was viewing some sample classes in Environmental Ethics, and they seemed to have a definite political point of view.

    Any thoughts?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2005
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Define "better."
     
  3. lchemist

    lchemist New Member

    Better = The program (or programme :) ) with higher academic quality.and reputation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2005
  4. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    It might depend on where/how you plan to use the degree. Also, I'd bet that you could not find a course in Environmental Ethics that does not have a political perspective. Politics is embedded in any study of ethics, environmental or otherwise. In general, political science is simply applied ethics. Just my thoughts.
    Jack
     
  5. lchemist

    lchemist New Member

    Jack,

    I understand what you said about politics, but what I was expecting was an academic analysis of the issues, and a dispassionate exposition of the different views..

    What I noticed instead, was a bias towards one position, the funny thing is that I may be in agreement with that position, but I couldn't avoid noticing how one sided was the presentation.

    Or may be, it's just me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2005
  6. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    Harvard. I believe there is a residential portion for their program, something that would be important in an environmental management degree. Also, environmental regulations will be different between the UK and US.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2005
  7. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Yes, I understand your point as well. However, I am guessing that the people who go into that field all tend to be of a similar mind on those issues and so they will have some difficulty in adequately representing the "other side."
    Jack
     
  8. timothyrph

    timothyrph New Member

    Politics or no, how many US Presidents and Supreme Court Justices came from Imperial College of London. If you can do Harvard, do Harvard.

    Don't they play Yale this week? I think the winner gets control of the Senate in the next elections. Instead of delay of game, I think the penalty is "fillibuster".

    Maybe I am just jealous that no one goes to Ivy league schools and becomes a pharmacist.....
     
  9. fortiterinre

    fortiterinre New Member

    This is like choosing between the truffles and the mousse on the dessert cart, except that the Harvard mousse will destroy fat cells, build muscle tissue, and give you naturally curly hair! Love London, but Harvard seems to trump for all the above reasons. We now return to dispassionate academic advice.
     
  10. bluechicago3

    bluechicago3 New Member

    Like a previous poster said, it depends on the definition of "better".

    With reputation, you can't go wrong either way. My two cents: in the USA, Harvard's ALM, right or wrong, doesn't have the reputation that any of the main campus degrees do, whether it's a AB, MBA, JD, AM, etc. This is because the Extension School (again, right or wrong since they share instructors, textbooks, and often curricula) doesn't have the same reputation that the other schools at Harvard do, and the ALM is a giveaway.

    I am not trying to offend those who worked extremely, extremely hard for their Harvard ALM's because those are very challenging, top quality degrees; I'm just acknowledging the reality that it's different.

    This is to say, I would worry not so much about reputation and go for the curriculum that seems to more meet your needs and political leanings (if applicable).

    Good luck!
     
  11. bluechicago3

    bluechicago3 New Member

    Clarification

    Modification to my previous post - when I said "different", I meant only in perception versus the campus degrees, NOT quality. I have no real basis for comparing quality of instruction or experience. Sorry for any confusion.
     
  12. AGS

    AGS New Member

    It depends where you will use the degree

    Many people vote Harvard because you will use the degree with some US corporate outfit ...Majority of corporation are US ..However, London will be good for those Non Governmental Organizations that trascend beyond borders around the Globe ...

    It is my opinion .... Imperial of London would do well with those United Nation sponsored organizations.....

    You need to ask Imperial about their graduates jobs or positions ....Find out from Imperial college where the graduates work after finishing their degrees....Do they have any internships with some NGO - Non Governmental Organization that specializes with environment issues .....

    I bet they will provide the answers ..Otherwise ask if they have any internships with some NGOs .....
     
  13. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    And I would like to state that bluechicago has only expressed an unsubstantiated opinion and this should not be confused with reality.
    Jack
     
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Good one. :D

    BTW....Harvard won the Big Game.

    I was, fairly recently, a Field Training Officer for a rookie that earned his undergrad degree from Brown University, and an M.B.A. from Boston College. When he told me what he was earning before joining the police department, I wanted to stop the cruiser and strangle him. :cool:
     
  15. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Slight edge to London. The MSc sounds like a more solid degree than an ALM to one who is unfamiliar with both. Obviously Harvard carries more cachet in the US than London, and may well deserve to do so. Whether that's true as well in an international venue, I couldn't say.

    Old joke: Harvard=U. Chicago of the east.

    Now I'll go hide in the back of Officer Tait's car. I feel safer there.

    Best wishes in your decisionmaking. J.
     
  16. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    If you don't spear your hand on the broken door handles.
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    There seem to be two different issues in this thread: the strutting peacock factor and the program-content factor. In this post I'm going to address the content.

    The Harvard Extension program's ALM degree title (is that a Master of Liberal Arts?) and course titles such as these:

    † ENVR E-115 Introduction to Sustainable Development (H)
    † ENVR E-117 Sustainability: The Challenge of Changing Our Institutions (H)
    † ENVR E-130 Global Climate Change: The Science, Social Impact, and Diplomacy of a World Environmental Crisis (H)

    ...kind of suggest to me that this is a program designed in part to prepare environmental activists.

    While the University of London External Programme degree title (M.Sc.) and these kind of course titles:

    Introduction to environmental economics & policy (C70)
    Science of environmental change (C61)
    Corporate environmental management (C67)
    Environmental auditing (C108)
    Environmental impact assessment (C107)
    Environmental monitoring (C71)
    Environmental valuation (C22)

    ...suggests a technical facts and skills-based program that might be more appropriate for positions in government or industry.

    Personally, I prefer the London course lineup.

    Both degrees might work in Washington, but I see the Harvard Extension graduate working for an environmental activist group while the London External Programme graduate is with the Environmental Protection Agency.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2005
  18. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I agree with that. It's true in both the Harvard and London cases.

    If the intention is to exploit the name of an elite school in order to claim an unjustifiable hierarchical edge over other graduates, then there's a clear ethical problem.

    But if we deemphasize the peacock-poseur factor, then the most important things to consider would probably be curriculum content, along with price and program design.
     
  19. AGS

    AGS New Member

    Yes you are right about London

    Yes the london has a more sounding of a program for working with an agency that concentrates on regulations with the environment ....

    However. different countries have different regulations ...

    So you really need to check the programs will be recognized in the US if you consider using the learning credientials from London ...

    As I have posted earlier ; London is a big name in the international world ......

    I dont think you will have problems finding something outside the world with London .....

    But you need to really do your research on people who already have the degree and what are they doing now with it ......

    YOu need to converse with a graduate from the program and see how they utilized their london degree ...

    since everyone is different ; keep in mind he or she may have a different agenda in their life but you need to see how useful the degree will bring it to your career ...
     
  20. lchemist

    lchemist New Member

    Re: Re: Harvard or Imperial?

    Exactly my concern

    On one hand a Harvard degree may open more doors in the US, in the other hand I like the academic line-up of London.

    As you may guess by my nick, my background is in chemistry, I also hold an Engineer in Training certificate.

    I would like to advance to a managerial position, probably in a government agency.

    My dream is to be able to teach at the college/university level.

    My options are:

    ALM Environmental Management from Harvard

    MSc. Environmental Management From London (Imperial)

    MBA From Pepperdine U. or a DL program.

    MS Environmental Engineering from USC or DL from Georgia Tech.

    I was even looking at a MS in Chemistry DL from Lehigh U. or IIT.

    Ultimately I would like to obtain a PhD, probably in Management of Technology.

    Thank you for your advice,

    lchemist
     

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