Trying to get a reasonable focus? More Info on CCU?

Hi folks,

I need to thank this board for keeping me from making a huge mistake with Warnborough last year (I had no idea it was a fraud). I also know that most of you have a heavy leaning towards RA schools, and that is probably fair. But I do have some questions. Most of them are driven by the fact that all of the RA DL schools are very expensive. I am in Canada, and with the cost of $1(US) running in the neighbourhood of $1.65(CAN), I can't make the investment in the RA schools.

I am seeking a Ph.D. or DBA in Management/marketing or a similar business oriented discipline. I have an MBA from Saint Mary's University (Halifax, NS Canada). I am a faculty member (tenured, Assistant level) at another Halifax-based university. I am also a regional marketing/management consultant in a family business. I do consulting on an international basis involving feasibility studies, focus groups and survey research. I am also a syndicated small business columnist in the Canadian market, with my small business column appearing in our province's major Sunday paper, as well as another weekly major paper in the Central Canadian market.

In terms of experience, I have been consulting since 1983 and teaching since 1985, full time (teaching...not consulting).

My dilemma is this. I should get a Ph.D. to go to the next level of rank (Associate Professor). With three kids going to university over the next five years (and one in grad school) those RA-approved degrees running $25,000-$30,000(US) are simply out of the question.

CCU degrees seem rigorous enough - Ph.D. requiring 4 core courses, 4 major courses, three research courses and three dissertation courses, with an oral defense of dissertation (I must confess I don't know how stringent the defense would be).

All candidates must have at least seven years full-time paid occupational employment experience in the major area. This is about two more years than required by the Canadian Institute of Marketing for award of their full membership and professional designation. I find it hard to believe that someone who meets these standards, and completes the programme, would not be duly qualified to have the title of "Dr.".

It seems to me (and I believe I read this in another discussion thread) that you really need to look at the calibre of the applicant, the work experience, etc., before you consider the person less than qualified for their jobs just because they got their degree from a non-RA school. And yet, when I read some of your posts, there does seem to be a witch-hunt of sorts going on, with various board members intent on exposing those in academia (or elsewhere) who have degrees from non-RA schools.

I am at a loss as to where to proceed. As many of you have pointed out, the RA schools cost a small fortune to attend. This is because they are RA-approved, and thereby have achieved the "good housekeeping stamp of approval".

I also believe that many of the schools that appear to be pre-approved (such as some UK and Canadian schools) wouldn't meet the stringent qualifications set forth by RA accreditation either.

Also, a note about UK schools. I am permanently ABD from Lancaster University in the UK (1995). This is because my committee for my dissertation disbanded when one of the faculty (there were two) left the university. What many don't realize is that when you register for a research-based degree in the UK you are tied to your committee, not necessarily the university. You must find at least one member of faculty to take you own as a research student (much like we do with honours theses and directed studies are my own university). If your committee should disband due to illness, retirement, etc. etc. you could literally be left high and dry. In my case, the remaining advisor asked me to start over with a completely new topic. I felt I couldn't do that (after 4 years and about 250 pages...including a pretest). So, I withdrew.

Another note about UK research degrees: you can do all of the work and end up with an M.Phil., not a D.Phil., if they feel your dissertation is not up to par at the end.

So, obviously, there is not a solution for everyone. But with my background, my track record which does include academic publication and teaching, I feel that the CCU DBA or Ph.D. would not be a problem to complete, and I feel I could use either one to its full potential both academically and professionally. What worries me is when I read about some of your members being reluctant to put such credentials on their vitae...and will I need to worry about someone chasing me down in a few years and singling me out because I have a non-RA degree?

Ideas? Suggestions?

Karen B

 

Karen,

I tend to agree with you. Believe me, I am a fan of RA schools, but I think that there are times when a non-RA school would be preferable. Dr. Bear's books point out the things that are important when making a decision. I think the critisisms of non RA doctorates are often often harsh and unwarranted. Any graduate from a legit doctoral program should enjoy the privlege of being called "doctor."

In Illinois, we have a school of Naprapathy, which is a health diagnosing profession. There are state licensing rules, and some insurance companies pay for treatment. The degree required to practice is D.N. or Doctor of Naprapathy. To my knowledge, there is only one college in the United States where this degree can be earned. It is in Chicago. This college is not RA. Under the line of thinking that a lot of posters on this forum subscribe to, the doctors that graduate from this school would not be addressed a so.

I think if your college will recognize the degree from CCU, you should go for it.

BTW, is the college where you teach named Dartmouth? I was walking around in Halifax once when I ran across a quaint little college with that name.

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Darren Cross
BSB-Management, UoP
MBA-Fontbonne College

 

Well, Karen, you do seem to have a dillema indeed. You are corrent in that the regionally accredited American institutions are very costly. That fact gives me pause as well. So what are some options?

You can consider Australian or South African schools. Several members of this board have indicated that the costs for schools from those countries is signifantly lower than US schools. Since you are already tenured, I would think the university for which you work wouldn't have a problem with it. While the schools offer research doctorates, several of them also appear to offer coursework and research combined. I would suggest that in terms of quality control issues (not to mentioned the risk of your degree being a source of embarassment), an Australian or South African degree that meets with GAAP guidlines (universal guidelines with regards to accreditation) would be a better choice than an unaccredited US degree.

Considering the importance of the investment, I would recommend that you purchase John Bear's Book, BEARS GUIDE TO EARNING DEGREES BY DISTANCE LEARNING- 14TH ED. It is published by Ten Speed Press. It offers several alternatives.

All the best in your quest for the right option.



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David F

 

Yeah, do what you want. You seem to have a grasp on the issues, yet seem poised to launch into what may turn out to be a regrettable decision. Good luck. I hope it works out for you.

While you're at it, consider California Pacific University.

Rich Douglas

 

Karen: I feel I could use [the California Coast] to its full potential... academically...

John: If your present employer will accept (not just tolerate, but accept) it, that's one major plus. If 2 or 3 other Canadian universities you check with will accept it, that's another.

I used to interact regularly with Kevin Paul, when he was Director of Graduate Admissions at the U of Victoria. He is also the author of three very nice books on Canadian colleges and universities, one directly competitive with mine. I am quite sure that he said that any unaccredited American degree would be virtually useless in Canadian higher education. But 'virtually' isn't 'always" and perhaps things have changed in the 8 or 9 years since he said that.

Finally, you might want to have a look at Wilfred Cude's scathing indictment of Canadian doctoral education in "The Ph.D. Trap Revisited" (http://web.idirect.com/~dundurn/PhDTrapRevisited.htm).

 

Darren,

I am at Mount Saint Vincent University in Halifax. I am not familiar with Dartmouth College here...but we have about 8 colleges/universities in our city of about 400,000. Amazing isn't it? And, King's College is quite quaint. It is on the campus of Dalhousie University which is probably the best known of the campuses here.

I want to thank everyone for their advice on this post. This board is really amazing...you get feedback which is excellent and quick!

Dr. Bear..thank you. I have tracked down Dr. Paul's page and I will be haunting the bookstores tomorrow evening...

Best wishes all,
Karen B

 

I think a CalCoast PhD for someone in academia would be a terrible mistake. Why spend so much time and effort on a degree with such limited value? People might snicker about an accredited DL degree, but at least such a degree can be defended academically. OTOH, I believe that an unaccredited PhD will prove impossible to justify.

• 
  Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
  Had I from old and young!
  Instead of the cross, the Albatross
  About my neck was hung.

A CalCoast doctorate is fine for someone like Ben Bova who has no professional need for the credential.

 

Hi Karen,

Your professional accomplishments appear to be quite substantial and impressive. The questions that one needs to reflect upon prior to making a decision re: which school to attend include how Will an unaccredited doctoral degree possibly affect one's credibility and future career opportunites? If significant others, such as one's boss or colleagues became aware of one's unaccredited credential how do you predict they will react? Will attaining an Unaccredited degree satisfy one's feelings of professional achievement or will there always be a lingering doubt that one could have done better? If the nature of an unaccredited degree leaked out to the public would this affect their trust and faith in the possessor of such degrees which may carry a stigma of not being legitimate or taking the "easy way out"?

These and other questions are a sound basis and a good start for self reflection because ultimately you alone will be the one to face the consequences, positive or negative, of this critical decision.

Good luck!

 

You haven't enrolled in CalCoast and you're already defending it. What does that tell you?

At least NorthCentral University is apparently on an accreditation track (candidate status). http://www.ncu.edu/course_catalog/

You might also look at:
--Charles Sturt University
--Scottish Knowledge DBA http://www.scottishknowledge.com/courses/showcourse.cfm?courseid=25&l=PST

I don't know that we have the whole story about your permanent UK ABD, but after four years of work, I would have become a very fierce advocate for myself trying to resolve the issue. If this can't be resolved, then students would be very reasonable in not wanting older faculty as advisors; there would be too much risk that years of work would be buried with your advisor. I wouldn't want one who is young, either: one who might flame out on the M4. No one with risky lifestyles.... It isn't reasonable that you receive a degree based on whether or not your advisor is careful when crossing roadways.

Perhaps someone at another UK university could work with the surviving advisor. South African--and I presume UK--universities use readers from other universities as a QA measure, so perhaps such a person could pick up the task. For that matter, perhaps the faculty who left could continue the task as a temporary adjunct.

 

I agree with DCross here. With regard to the school in Chicago, he is correct and the school does meet all state requirements licensure.

There is a bias on this board towards RA degrees and the reasons given are very valid, however that being said it does not bind you to a choice. I think I am some kind of wild liberalto say such things but oh well - if the school works for you and your plans for the future, go for it

 

While you're at it, consider California Pacific University.

Rich Douglas[/B][/QUOTE]

Rich, was it necessary to be so harsh on this poster? She obviously was looking for guidance. Isn't it possible to state your position without being nasty about it?

 

Hi Karen

Well it seems quite clear that a CCU degree would be a huge mistake for you. You have several good choices available including:

a. Finding a way to resurect your ABD British degree. I too would spend a huge amount of effort to find a way past any obstacles.

b. Choose a respectable GAAP degree from outside the US.

c. Choosing an inexpensive RA degree such as Northcentral.

Why create all the potential embarrassment by getting a CCU degree?

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

I also forgot to mention another school in in istitution in Illinois, that not too long ago offered a state approved PhD and qualified folks to be licensed psychologist in Illinois. The name of the school is called "The Institue of Psychoanalysis". In fact, the school still offers programs approved by the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation. The school no longer offers the PhD in Psychotherapy because the costs were high. Here is the link to the institution: http://www.chicagoanalysis.org/

 

Why are you interested in distance education? Are there conventional on-campus programs offered in Halifax?

Why do you want a higher "rank"? If the rank pays more, what's the cost/benefit tradeoff when you factor in a doctorate's time/effort/dollar-costs? A doctorate is a big undertaking, as you surely know. If it isn't just increased pay, then what is it? Increased prestige within your profession? If that interests you, will a non-accredited degree really serve your needs?

Please don't be naive. Degree mills often have tremendously impressive catalogs. It's part of their marketing. I'm not suggesting that Cal Coast is a degree mill, but I am suggesting that catalog coolness is a poor indicator of academic strength.

Does it really matter what you think? Unless you are pursuing the degree simply for self-satisfaction, what matters most is what your employers and colleagues think. They are probably the ones that you need to be talking to.

Ask them how they would respond to a non-accredited CA-approved doctorate. Would they give it respect equal to that given conventional doctorates? My guess is that most of them have never heard of CCU. But when the "non-accredited" part starts to seep in, sneers may start to develop.

Well sure. But the same thing is true of people who don't even have degrees, isn't it?

A degree is a certification that a graduate's education has met a certain standard. In the United States, the regional accreditors are associations of colleges and universities that recognize one another as peer institutions, and which accept one another's credits in transfer. The accreditors maintain a quality control process to see that standards are met.

So that makes non-accredited degrees kind of problematical, doesn't it? On one hand, the degree itself is certifying that the graduate's education has met some standard. But the lack of accreditation suggests that whatever that standard is, it isn't the one recognized by other universities.

My personal opinion is that non-accredited graduate programs can be great places to get (non-credit) continuing education, but are usually poor places to earn degrees.

Let me get this straight. You are not willing to return to Lancaster or to another similar doctoral program because of the amount of work that would be involved with a new dissertation advisor. But you are confident that starting a whole new doctoral program at Cal Coast "would not be a problem to complete". Doesn't that suggest something?

 

Rich, was it necessary to be so harsh on this poster? She obviously was looking for guidance. Isn't it possible to state your position without being nasty about it?[/B][/QUOTE]


I was very sincere. If someone believes CCU is a viable option, then so is California Pacific. The only thing amiss is your interpretation, along with a comment you could've simply kept to yourself.

Rich Douglas

 

Hi:

Same situation as mine, US degrees are just too much for a canadian resident in terms of US dollar. I live in Montreal and I'm working towards a DBA at the University of Southern Queensland, there are some examination centres in Canada so you won't need to travel to Australia. It is an accredited Australian University and it will be more accepted that a degree from CCU or a virtual university like North Central.
www.usq.edu.au

 

So you are advocating that the original poster checking out other non-RA schools. I have every right to share my idea, oppinions and so forth on this board Rich, even if my ideas oppose yours.