South African Theological Seminary Question

If you choose the dissertation only option then I think that what you can expect is going to be a lot like this:
You will be assigned and Advisor (sometimes they are called Promoters). This will be a member of the faculty who has some special knowledge of the general topic that you have specified. How do you choose a topic? There are lots of ways to do this, you might start by familiarizing yourself with the research interests of the existing faculty members. You will need to write a formal proposal for your research. There will be a specific format provided by the school that you will need to follow. When your proposal is accepted (you might need to rewrite your proposal a couple of times until it is accepted) then you embark on your research. Often times people will start this by doing the literature review. You will submit your work to your advisor and they will make suggestions for changes. Frequently people will submit "Chapters." and their advisor will rip them up (not literally) and then you rewrite them and move on to the next Chapter, etc. There are a number of books available that describe this process in detail. They are readily available in any decent bookstore or Amazon/Barnes&Noble, etc. When the work is completed and to the satisfaction of everyone involved then you get your degree. Obviously I've left out a whole lot but I think you get the idea. There's probably a fair amount of information on this to be found on the school website.
Good luck.
Jack

 

Peter

I think we have not been discussing exactly the same thing. As I understand it, you are discussing the SATS MTh in the context of the UK system. But as SATS is a Distance Education school in which Americans enroll, as the original inquirer is and is considering, I was discussing SATS in the context of USA theological education.

Someone had asked about the differences between the SATS MTh and the USA ThM. It could be (falsely) inferred that as in both cases a first degree in Theology is the prerequisite and as both are masters in Theology, the that the two are the same degree.

But since SATS accepts those into the program who have only USA sort of BAs in Theology, which would require no languages, and which would have only 10-12 courses in Theology, and since SATS does not require languages in its MTh in Bible, and as the SATS BTh/MTh could be gotten in six years, the SATS MTh has neither the same prerequisites, the same rigor, the same duration, or the same utility(in America) of a USA sort of ThM in Bible from an Evangelical school.

None of these comments of mine are to depreciate the quality or the friendliness of the SATS people and programs. My comments simply are to suggest that in American higher Ed the SATS MTh is more like a MA than a ThM.


Bill

 

Bill,

Bingo - he problem is when someone from one system transfers to another, and there is a presumption that the degree from the "other" system is the same as the one they are transferring into. There is, as you have commented, a huge differnce between a (USA) BA with major in Bible and an MDiv. There is not nearly so much difference (although there will still be some) between an MDiv and a (UK) BA Theol / BTh etc. The problem is that SATS (and many other Unis) seem to think a BA (UK) = BA (US). A typical UK student acquiring an MTh will have a BA (in something) and a BTh, a typical American ThM candidate a BA + MDiv, so in that instance the differences probably aren't so great. I think your analogy with the US MA is a fair one - it is all a question of nomenclature. The SATS MTh would be an MLitt in TCD, Oxford & Cambridge, an MPhil in most other unis. The Wales MA is the same (more or less) as the QUB MTh and the TCD MPhil. The Oxford / Cambridge MA is a BA in most places. Different titles depending on the university structure. This is why the cirricula is more important than the actual title.

Regards,

P

 

As a holder of an American bachelor's degree in Bible, I experienced something of the inarticulation of the American and UK systems when I enrolled in the Wales MTh at Spurgeon's College. It was evident to me that my UK peers had gained a higher level of preparation through their BD's and BA's in Religion. However, because I was the first American ever enrolled in this program at Spurgeon's, there was something of a lack of appreciation of the difference between bachelor's-level training in our two systems. In fact, the standard of work that was required of us as MTh students was considerably above that which is expected of seminary students at several of the Midwestern institutions with which I am familiar.

When all was said and done, I faired quite well in this program. However, I suspect that I had to work a little harder to make up the difference between my undergraduate preparation and the level of preparation that was assumed.

As an interesting aside (which I've mentioned here before), most all of the Spurgeon's faculty members went from their BD work directly into PhD's at distinguished institutions like King's College, London, or picked up an MA/MPhil/MLitt/MTh prior to PhD work, and have emerged as highly regarded figures within their fields of expertise. However, these same faculty members seem to have developed something of a cautionary stance toward admitting American MDiv graduates directly into their PhD program. They seem to feel, based upon their experience, that American MDiv holders demonstrate a lack of preparation to engage in advanced research. Thus, provisional enrollment in the MPhil is now considered fairly standard (as it would be for many British BA/BTh/BD holders).

Also, I think it is worth mentioning that I found a higher degree of natural articulation between my studies in the UK and South Africa than between my studies in the USA and the UK.

One further thing, I find it interesting that many of the seminaries around the US (including Luther, Princeton, etc.) are using the language of "first degree in theology" in describing their admissions requirements. They recognize, as they seek to appeal to an international constituency, that not all systems are created equal. Thus, you have several Scottish BD holders gaining direct admission into the Princeton DMin. Similarly, several of the cooperative DMin programs, through which American seminaries offer DMins on UK soil in cooperation with local institutions like Aberdeen, identify the MDiv as the prerequisite for American students and the BD for British students. Also, I personally know several South African BD/BTh holders who have received direct admission into ThM studies at institutions like Princeton and Columbia Theological Seminary (GA).

 

It is usual in all unis in the UK for a PhD candidate to register either as an "undifferentiated research student" or to register as an MPhil (or equivalent) candidate, and after a specified period of time (c. 9 months full time / 1-2 years for part time) for the candidates research to be assessed re moving to PhD registration or opting for MPhil. In many cases it is a formality, in some cases a candidate begins with the aim of the lower degree, in some the research wasn't going as well as expected and in some it is going better than expected. There is (technically) no such thing as direct registration for a PhD.

Could you tell us a little more about the Cooperative DMins in the UK?

Many thanks,

P

 

Based off of this observation what could I assume in the time needed to finish the degree.
Considering that my undergrad was in theology and I have 35 graduate hours in the same, am I getting any real benefit from this program. i.e. Would it matter if I had any graduate hours at all if my undergrad was in theology?

I did very well in my 35 grad hours and I want them to count towards my degree.

 

===


I think the SATS website describes the MTh as being normally a two year program. See if they will not agree to apply some of your 35 hrs of grad work toward their Mth.

You are aware ,I'm sure, that there are USA MAs which you can do wholly by Distance Ed.

Bill

 

I am aware but have had a hard time finding one that will accept all the hours. Not because of the school, as it is fully accredited, but because a MA is usually 45 or so hours and they require 32 to be completed with them.

I feel like I'm wasting my classes if I go that route.

 

RevPeter,

My apologies for seeming to imply that the requirement of probationary MPhil registration was an expression of my alma mater's uneasiness with having American MDiv graduates register as PhD students. These really are unrelated matters.


As far as the cooperative DMin programs are concerned, the two that most readily come to mind are the following:

From the Highland Theological College Website:
(http://www.htc.uhi.ac.uk/dmin.html)
“Highland Theological College (HTC) is offering the D.Min degree in partnership with Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) in the USA…Applicants must have a university degree in theology or the academic equivalent. The degree must include the study of at least one biblical language (Hebrew or Greek). Applicants must also have been engaged in a recognised form of full-time professional ministry for at least three years.”

From the University of Aberdeen Website:
(http://www.abdn.ac.uk/divinity/pgrad/documents/DMin2005_000.doc)
"A new transatlantic program of collaborative teaching and learning began in 1999. This is designed for ministers in Scotland and the U.S.A. who are graduates in Divinity and who have had at least three years professional experience. The program is the Doctor of Ministry degree offered by Pittsburgh Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. This is made available through teaching and studying in both Aberdeen and Pittsburgh to a group of sixteen ministers - eight from each side of the Atlantic. The next intake will be in Autumn 2005."

I simply can't recall off the top of my head whether additional such programs exist.

 

===


Do you know that your classes are not wasted if you go the SATS route? Seems to me you are obliged to learn that before doing much else.

Faith Seminary (TRACS acccredited) has two lower masters degrees. One in Theology and the other in Ministry. These may be done by DE.

Each requires 72 quarter hrs and each will accept 32 q/ hrs. in transfer.
I suppose other US schools would do similarily. However, probably the USA degree will cost two or three times as much as SATS will .

Again, get a hold of Reuben at SATS. Perhaps SATS would give you credit for your 32 hrs. And, as implied, perhaps some USA school also will.

Then, the issue for you to decide is which is better for you now and in your future: a SATS MTh or a USA MA?

 

I just received this email from the registrar at SATS. I'm very confused as I cannot find any of this on their site. Also, I know if I respond I will not receive an answer for a few days. I appreciate any of your help in understanding what she means by this.

I wrote her an email in concern to my graduate hours that I had already earned.


Hi John

I’ve had some feedback from the Admissions Committee with reference to your request of graduate credits. They are happy to enrol you for a 60 credit thesis programme. This means that you have gained 60 credits in recognition of your prior learning into the MTh programme and remain with ? a degree to complete before being awarded the qualification.

Blessings
Leschenne

 

Dear Mr Sorrell:

This is a generous grant of credit for the course work you feared would be "wasted." Why not get on the phone and talk to the charming and omnicompetent Miss Honiball? Or Dr Peppler or Dr van Rensburg, for that matter? I think if you do so you will be happy.

Janko Preotul

 

===


Sounds to me like they are halving the requirement. I'd jump on it.

Yes, you will want to know precisely what this means: a research product of 70 pages? (wowser I've done 70 page exegetical term papers in classes requiring three other papers AND that was in a TRINITY of Newburgh course!!! ) or does it mean doing 1/2 of the coursework?

Either way, it appears, you have been made a generous offer which saves your past credits. SATS' generous liberality continues to astound me !

I'd accept in a heartbeat IF what you want is a SATS MTh!!

 

Indeed. What Bill said. And Janko, too. Jump on it.

 

For anyone interested I got a reply from SATS about my 60 credit transfer.

Basically the 60 credit mini-thesis would consist of 60-80 typed pages. Your structure and supervision would remain as per a normal full thesis.

Needless to say, I'll be enrolling this week.
Thanks for everyone's help!

 

Good for you! Best wishes in your new programme!

 

===

Tom


I really am shy, you know, about talking about myself , but I'll try.

As you know, a part of the dissertational process is to complete a review of the literature. I did that. My comment above is based on that review.

The title of my effort is:

THE OBEDIENT SON: An Evalution Of Some Evangelical Teaching On The Eternal Role Subordination Of The Son Through A Comparison Of That Teaching With Related Doctrines.

It focused on American Evangelical Theology {that is why I opted to have an informal American reader in addition to the several profs from three SA unis}.

Now, it is not that writing about Trinal hierarchical relationships is novel. That has been a popular subject for 1700 years or so!

What I think makes my work somewhat original is that it addresses the issue of the supposed eternal relational subordination of God the Son to God the Father through an exhaustive number of attempts to compare that tenet with established cognate ones as: Decree, Incarnation, Divine Attributes, Divine Essence, Soteriology, Biblical Anthropology and so forth. The method is based on a common principle in Evangelical Systematic Theology that all major doctrines must cohere else the belief system itself is faulty.

As far as I know, this method has not been followed to any degree as applied to this issue. The doctrine instead is "covered " in systematics, journals, monographs, or theses by insignificant comparisons of it with but a few doctrines or by exegeses of a modest number of texts.


Bill

 

Bill, I appreciate your willingness to share your story. I find these things interesting. I've just begun working on the proposal for my DMin project/dissertation, so I'm reading about other people's doctoral adventures with some interest.

Tom