South African Theological Seminary Question

Dear Bill,

I'm sorry if I didn't express myself well in my previous posting. I wasn't commenting on higher education in the USA, but rather trying to point out that the the British educational system (which SA generally follows) is very different from the American system. It is hard to divorce an individual degree (eg the MTh / ThM) from the overall system, which is why difficulties often seem to arise when one attempts to move from one system to the other, or to compare degrees from different systems. Perhaps I should have spent some more time trying to re-phrase what I was trying to say!

Regards,

P

 

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Peter

Thankyou for your kind response.

I think both of us were right in what we said. I was just trying to address the issue of the differences in prereqs, content , duration, and utility between the SATS MTh and USA grad programs in Evangelical schools.

I do like the UK/SA system in which a doc can be earned by research only.

But I also have reservations about:

1) one doing a MTh by research only and then also doing a doc only by research. It doesn't seem to me that the effect of this would be a graduate very broadly educated or trained.

I prefer the Western Seminary ThM program in which one both takes coursework and writes an academic thesis.

2) one doing a doc in Bible or Theology who does not have some working knowledge of the Biblical languages if one's research could be enhanced by that knowledge.

I suppose that most Biblical and many Theological topics would really require at the doctoral level of research the use of the Biblical languages. Of course were topics to interface much with modern or patristic theology then German or Latin also might be of benefit.

As an aside, I probably would not recommend a SATS BA or MTh by coursework in Theology because of my personal opinion (last I looked) on the inadequacies of the SATS curricular offerings which in my narrow view are short on the doctrines of Revelation and God.



Thanks again for your response,

Bill

 

Bill: What I was trying to point out in my post was that the UK system MTh and the US-style ThM are both one year of post-ordination theological studies. The difference seems to be that the UK-style ordination degree is still the BD while anyone with a US-style BD would be quite old indeed, as the US BD became the degree-inflated MDiv back in the Sixties. Another thing I'm reminded of is that when I was an MDiv student at Faith Seminary many moons ago (unfortunately, I washed during my junior year), I once referred to myself as a graduate student in theology and one of my professors very sternly told me that the MDiv is an undergraduate theological degree. Hence, it seems that while the US-style ThM is four years of master's work, it is apparently only one year of graduate work.

 

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Ted

Thanks for putting up with my nitpicking. I agree with most of what you say. I disagree with your stern professor. To continue my nitpicking , IMO the MDiv IS a grad theological degree:

1) There exists in the USA distinct undergrad theological degrees as a BA in Bible or a ThB. (but my ThB was a 5th yr) The MDiv is not one of these.

2) The MDiv is called a master's degree, and a master's degree IS a grad degree,

3) It has as a prereq a BA and many who enter it, as I did, have the BA in Bible,

4) Coursework as Greek and Hebrew Exegesis, and Systematic Theology, and other coursework is at a rigor that surpasses in my experience grad coursework in either Education or English and also exceeds the rigor of BA coursework in Bible ,

5) One may in USA Evangelical schools enter doc work with the MDiv qualification but not with only a BA or even , in most cases, with an MA.

6) Accreditors as TRACS call MDiv work grad work!

7) Qualifications for profs teaching MDiv courses in seminaries are greater than for profs teaching religion courses in Bible colleges.

Therefore, IMO, your prof is wrong.

Bill

 

Hey John,

Greetings from another Southern Baptist poster.
Perhaps the SBC is, indeed, receptive to South African seminary degrees. Check out Dorothy Patterson's credentials:

http://www.swbts.edu/faculty/dpatterson/

God bless your ministry.

 

Bill,

It is unusual in the UK to find an MTh that is thesis only. Usually an MTh has a combination of courses (which each involve the production of a research paper) and a thesis. Usually an MPhil is a research only degree, except in TCD & one or two others where it has taught courses as well, and the MLitt is the degree by 100% research.

I think in terms of breadth of education it appears that this happens earlier in the UK system. By the time one gets to University, there is usually a limit of 3 subjects for 1st year, and 1 or 2 following this, so a BA is very specialised in comparison to an American BA.

It is quite usual for someone to progress from a BA directly to a PhD, depending on the subject areas covered, and the interest of the student. Many now take a Masters as preperation to bridge the gulf between u/g work and doctoral research.

Certainly doctoral work in any reputable UK Uni requires biblical languages, and if it is in OT, I know an ability to read German texts is also required. I'm fairly sure Biblical Languages would also be required for a masters in Bible, and they are certainly a required part of the BD.

On the other point that Ted has raised, I think he is looking from a UK perspective. In the UK an MDiv would be regarded as 'equivalent' to a BD or an undergraduate degree, probably with the qualification that it is a 2nd u/g degree. A graduate degree in the UK mindset is a second / higher degree in the same discipline. This seems to be where the confusion is arising.

Regards,

P

 

To support what RevPeter just said:
When I was at Oxford stuyding there two years ago during a summer school, I inquired as to admissions requirements. At that point, I already had my MDIV and was close to having my THM AND PDH. They said while all the other degrees would help my admission to the PHD program at Oxford, they would look at the MDIV the most because was equivalent to their undergraduate degree in divinity, which is the basis for their admission.

 

Does anyone know where I can find more info about the profs at SATS? Where they earned their degrees, etc.

 

www.sats.edu.za/mth.html

 

Peter

It is my understanding that the SATS MTh can be done by doing one research topic and no classes. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. If I'm right, then one could by research only do a SA MTh and a Dth. IMO that may not be good.

I'm sure you know that in the USA some UA schools oft here discussed offer DAs, PhDs or ThDs in Bible or Theology w-out any languages.

Bill

 

That link only supplies their degrees, not where they were earned. I've googled their names but have not come up with anything.

 

I think the SATS MTh is normally a two teir process with course work, followed by a thesis.

clint

 

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http://www.sats.edu.za/mth.html

It CAN be done by thesis ONLY with NO classes and NO exams!

The MTh. requires a 4 yr BA in Theology to get in and can be done in two years. The USA ThM requires a four year BA AND a three year MDiv to get in!

Then, one could go to UZ and do a DTh also only by research. In other words, the ONLY coursework would be that done in the BA!

Therefore , the SA MTh in Bible could be done in a total of six years without Heb or Greek as a prereq, but the USA ThM in Bible requires eight years with Heb Grk as prereqs!

Those are considerable differences IMO.

 

Oops, my bad. You are correct. It is an either/or sort of thing. In my (apparently faulty) memory, it was necessary to have both coursework and thesis.

But it is not so....

clint

 

(The following was being drafted while the two previous posts were being made; but I'm still letting it post just for additional information/clarification, etc.)

There are two versions of (or methodologies of achieving) the SATS MTh:

1. For those who come to the SATS MTh program with a reasonable biblical/theological background (i.e., those with a BD or BDiv or BTh or BAPM or BAPS, etc.), there is the normal, thesis-based version of the program wherein no coursework whatsoever is taken; there is no exam; and the student will be required to write a thesis of from 120 to 140 pages (12 point font, one-and-a-half spacing).
   
2. For those whose biblical/theological background/underpinnings are, as SATS calls them, "thin," there is the "structured" version of the MTh wherein it is possible (though not necessarily true) that the degree supervisor will prescribe certain undergraduate bible or theology courses to sort of round-out/fill-in whatever gaps exist in the student's biblical/theological underpinnings; and then the student writes three "mini-thesis" papers (instead of one big one, like in item #1, above) in pursuit of certain outcomes agreed-upon by the student and the supervisor.[/list=1]The normal requirement for admission into either program is "an appropriate four-year theology degree (or equivalent)." Such an applicant would likely be admitted to the thesis-based version of the MTh (item #1, above); however, even that would be subject to the outcome of the evaluation of the applicant's undergraduate transcripts that SATS is willing to do for free for anyone who asks.
   
   A student whose undergraduate degree isn't in any kind of theological/biblical discipline or area of study is not likely to be admitted into the SATS MTh program at all. However, such an applicant may still be accepted into the "structured" MTh program (item #2, above) if s/he has a strong documentable/provable biblical/theological background from at least somewhere (i.e., a lot of self-study, or many non-credit biblical/theological courses... or at least something). Again, it would be completeluy at SATS's discretion, subject to the aforementioned free undergraduate transcript evaluation, plus its willingness to consider verifiable extra-curricular biblical/theological studies.

 

Bill,

You are entirely correct in what you write, I would just like to throw in a few observations!

The USA ThM requires a 4 yr BA + a 3 year MDiv - but the BA need not be in theology - so in a sense it only requires 3 years of theological education. The BA could be in English Litt, Geography or any subject (at least that is my understanding, am I wrong?). The SATS MTh requires a 4 year BA/BTh - so it requires 4 years of theological study, which I would expect should be comparable to the MDiv (which was, until several years ago, a BD, again if memory serves correctly).

Re coursework, it is usual for British students only to take coursework for a BA, as I have mentioned before, the BA is a much more focused degree, and is (generally) the requisite degree to enter a PhD, a masters is an optional luxury!

A student would normally take 3 years for a BA in the UK, and c. 3 (full time) for a PhD, but it could be done in 2 at a real stretch. So it is possible to have a PhD in 5 years. But, most in theology have read for a BA(etc) in another subject first, so have 3 years (+) of Uni education, 3 years BTh, perhaps 1-2 years MTh / MA / MPhil, and then 3ish years for a PhD, so potentially 10-12 years of study.

I am surprised that an MTh could be done without Hebrew or Greek if it is in Biblical Studies. Is there a presumption that a required standard will have been reached (even if not be examination)?

Regards,

P

 

Bill,

I think we are now getting closer to the nub of my original point re comparing the systyems rather than individual degrees!

I was referring specifically to a British system BA in theology rather than an American. In a BA(Theol) in the UK, ALL of the second and third year would be in theology, and either 1/2 or 1/3 of the first year (or perhaps even all) depending on the university. I think most would require a second subject for first year, but certainly not beyond that. To get a BA with a major in Theol, at least 2/3 of the entire degree must be in Theol, with 1/3 in a minor area, possibly related (eg Biblical Studies etc) or not neccessarily so. A BTh must be at least a major in theology, if not 100% theol. Ditto a BD (undergraduate as opposed to TCD / Oxford / Cambridge). The reference you made to 10-12 courses for an American major seems very little (to me)?

We only have one MDiv programme (that I am aware of) in the British Isles - that is in QUB (where I read for a BA). It was introduced for two reasons - because most ordinands were already graduates, and didn't want a second bachelors degree, and because there was no government funding for a 2nd bachelors, there may be some available for a masters! The MDiv students attended lectures with the 2nd & 3rd year u/g students, and "topped up" with some additional seminars - they had seperate assignments and exams. The courses were at a slightly higher level, but the difference was not really that significant. There was an expectation that the majority of Theol students already had a degree of some sort and were studying for a second career / or just for love of learning.

One caveat on what I said ina previous post - a PhD could be done in 5 years (3 for BA, 2 for PhD), but this would be unusual - I had one lecturer in college who did it, and in Oxford - BA in 3 years (normal), and DPhil in 2. Normally it takes 3+ for the PhD/DPhil. And as mentioned already, many theology students would be on their second degree, so the system isn't that different, other than the omission of the obligatory ThM in the US.

I've been pondering this for a while and piecing together bits of different discussions on this group and others, and I think the root of the difference lies at high school level rather than University. There was a discussion on this group (?) some time ago that concluded that UK A-levels were equivalent to the general ed part of a degree - AA or AS level depending on the subjects taken; a UK BA was viewed as higher than a US BA - equivalent to the coursework of an MA [if there was no thesis]. Hence the direct entry to a PhD in the UK with a BA, and the need for an intermediate MA in the US.

Sorry if this is turning into a bit of a ramble....

Regards,

P

 

Now that the Th.M. vs. M.Th. has been thoroughly handled, I would ask what one, who is unfamiliar to the workings of the M.Th. at SATS, UNISA, etc. could expect.
When I think education, as an American, I rightfully think courses, books, coursework, papers, exams.
I know that SATS M.Th. can be done by thesis only, but what are the steps one takes to finish this. Do they make a proposal (in what manner?) and then set off to write 120 pages on their own? What is the scope and sequence of events leading up to the degree completion?
Also, how does one go about choosing a topic? Is it free game within your selected course of study or are you given options, lists, to choose from?
I just received an email stating that I've been accepted in SATS M.Th. program and want to explore every inch of what I'm getting myself into before going any further.
I truly appreciate this board and the broad scope of info it provides!