New Orleans explained

Pretty much says it all..


Show of hands: How many LE or ex-LE are really surprised at the allegations of the "misappropriation of non-essential items" (aka looting) by the NO PD? Not surprising at all. Having been to NO on several occasions, I have never been that impressed by the quality of dept. If memory serves, I think NO, Detroit, and Washington DC PD as being the most corrupt (measured by the percentage of arrested or indicted officers in the dept). Contrast that with the CHP, NHHP, and another large PD (I forgot which one) who have the lowest nationally.

 

No I am not surprised at all.

The New Orleans police department is a model for corrupt police departments. I have, on this board, been a major detractor of them and many other officials in the area. However, having said that and in all fairness we (and I) shouldn't overlook the good being done by many on and off the department....

 

Re: No I am not surprised at all.

A Pirate, a Marshal, and the Battle of New Orleans - the more things change...

I like the website of the U.S. Marshals. Their history is much the history of the U.S.

 

For many years, the New Orleans Police Department was the most poorly paid of any major city PD. IIRC, most NOPD Officers with families qualified for welfare, even at the top pay-step.

While that's certainly no excuse for looting, it does go back to the old saying, "You get what you pay for".

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Bruce's assessment. The same really goes for Detroit. However, how can you explain the LAPD and SO? The are among the highest paid in the nation. Granted, the areas that they serve are among the most gang infested in the nation -- they do appear to have more than there share of problems.

It is interesting to note that federal agencies such as Immigration Officers (other than Border Patrol) and the US Marshal Service pays significanlty lower than local PD's and SO's - and yet the amount of real corruption (I am not referring to 1/2 price donuts or free coffee - I am referring to graft, 242 USC violations, etc) is reportedly much lower. (I took the test for USMS in 1984 - at the time a top level Marshal made about the same as a probationary Deputy in CA).

 

Actually, when you factor-in the cost of living in Los Angeles, the LAPD really isn't all that well paid. Most LAPD Officers have to live pretty far from the city, unless they want to live in the ghetto. Again, not an excuse for corruption.

I think one of LAPD's main problems (I don't know much about LASD) was the centralization of command....everything used to be run out of Parker Center, with little authority left to the station commanders. On top of that, you had special units like CRASH run out of the neighborhood stations, but unanswerable to anyone except their commanders at Parker Center. I think that directly led to situations such as the Rampart CRASH Unit scandal.

 

I recall a scandal from about a decade ago. Some NOPD officers had been supplementing their extremely low pay by moonlighting as security guards for drug warehouses. One policewoman got in a firefight with some other police working for a rival drug gang and I think several were killed.

To a large extent the problem resembles Mexico. In Mexico the police are so incredibly poor they usually have to pay for their own guns and bullets. That kind of system discourages ethics and honesty. It takes a heroic effort to be honest, and an "Average Joe" police who would have been honest under a better system turns corrupt by default.

 

There was also a NOPD Officer working a (legitimate) off-duty security job at a fast-food place. A robbery team came in, killed the cop, then herded all the employees into the back room, where they were killed.

Unfortunately for the bad guys, they missed one employee, who hid and watched the whole thing. He identifed one of the robbery crew, a female NOPD Officer who had just been relieved by the dead officer, and came back to kill him to start the robbery. She then returned to the scene of the crime to "mourn" her dead partner, when in fact she killed him.

 

Not just a few in N.O.

I was a cop in Tampa for 9 months. I never stole anything, I never made anything up, I never accepted anything for free because I was a cop (no one ever offered) , I never committed any crimes while I was a police officer (or otherwise for that matter).

I was laid off with everyone in my cohort because of budget cuts. I decided it was not my life's work.

Recently N.O. police officers beat a senior citizen in front of television videographers and then battered a reporter in front of the same cameras. Sure being a LEO can be stressful and I am sure Katrina was stressful, but beating an old guy for being drunk is simply unacceptable.

The video is here

That is why I am never going to New Orleans again. My few hundred dollars at Mardi Gras or to any of the other attractions or museums I have previously enjoyed in Louisiana will not be a big loss, but I can't spend money in a state where corruption, graft, fraud, and theft have gone unchecked so long.

It is really sad that the people of Louisiana and New Orleans have let it turn into the toilet it has. Things will really have to change before I visit there again, things I don't see happening in my lifetime.
That is sad.

 

Same

Mr. Engineer is right on target. NOPD has been considered the most corrupt department, followed by several like Detroit, DC, Philly, Cleveland, in the country. Nepotism is rampant, I believe a GED could be required, and all the officers know the "perks" supplement the income. Several pay for a slot to be considered. Also, SS pay was near the bottom with MS. This was back in the '70's though.

DTechBA mentioned all the good they do. Is he referring to doing their jobs? Catching bad guys, saving lives, shooting scum shooting at you, are all part of the job description. No REAL cop would consider doing their job as heroism, just as most military personnel are embarrassed receiving medals for DOING THEIR JOB.

Every NOPD officer is aware of the pay. The job is voluntary and I believe most are just looking for a job giving them power they could never receive during their lifetime. Too ignorant and lack morals.

NOPD has been the center of dozens and dozens of Federal investigations concerning corruption, murder, drug trafficking,. armed robbery, you name it. The Feds have been hampered by the total lack of cooperation, from NOPD, the Chief down, and city hall. The Feds have had to resort to planting officers on the department. Now, there is heroism. A plant is dead if suspected or their cover is blown.

Bruce said that they get what they pay for. Very true, but the department needs to be gutted, top down, or salary will make no difference. Cops don't get into the work to make great sums of money. Some enjoy adventure and a sense of duty (my excuse), others as a stepping stone to gain experience for future goals.
The fools just looking for a job or to play John Wayne are not worthy of the badge. The citizens are numb to the crap they have lived with so long. And those able to change things, prefer the status quo.

My mother's family was Old Orleans aristocracy. The living relatives agree the problems are as old as the city and will continue until a bigger flush clears the bowl. Unfortunately, there is no discrimination between the good folks and the bad.

When a NOPD officer gets popped, if it's minor they want their rep and attorney, if it's major they start cry WP! The whole state can sink, in my opinion.

 

I mentioned the good....

I mentioned the good generally and I didn't mean "all" the good in the sense that the bad was insignificant. I was referring to officials in and out of the NOPD and I didn't want to indict everyone in the troubles being displayed down there. The NOPD is one of the worst police departments in the USA and to be a good offficer in a force like the NOPD isn't simply a matter of doing your job. There can be repercussions for those who "don't go along"....

 

I am, of course, a civilian and have no "inside" knowledge of the NOPD, as some of the those in law enforcement who have posted here might have.

I have, however, been to New Orleans many times over the years, beginning in my teens in the 1960s. From a civilian perspective, the NOPD are well known not just for being corrupt but for being brutal. I have often been told, when mentioning a coming visit to NO, to give the cops a wide berth, and I have seen many instances of brutality personally. Mind you, I well understand the need for the police to use violence when necessary. I also understand police brutality and a culture of brutality when I see it.

The incident this weekend is not uncommon in NO, except that this one was caught on tape and broadcast on national television.

I have little patience with those who seemingly justify police misbehavior by tying this to their inadequate pay. If you're not paid enough, go get a better-paying job. Don't use this as an excuse to commit crimes or brutalize the citizenry you're sworn to protect.

marilynd

 

While I think that this did happen, was it the New Orleans Police Department doing it? Or was it some undetermined number of individual police officers? In other words, are you alleging that these police officers who were looting were acting under orders?

The title of this thread is "New Orleans Explained". So what aspect of New Orleans are you proposing to explain and what is your explanation? So far, all you have told us is that you don't like the New Orleans police.

 

The invisible elephant in this room is the fact that New Orleans, Detroit and Washington have black-run city governments and their police departments have unusually large percentages of black police officers.

New Hampshire is a little different.

Is this the explanation for New Orleans? (Whatever that means.)

 

Is that what I said? No, I don't believe it was.

The simple fact is if you're going to pay shit, you're going to get shit. As I mentioned before, an NOPD Officer with a wife and children qualifies for welfare, even at the top pay-step. Now, do you honestly think you're going to get the cream of the crop when you're paying poverty wages? You're certainly not going to get a lot of college educated applicants, that's for sure.

My PD is one of the highest paid in the state, if not the highest. Probably 70% of the patrol force has a graduate degree, with 90+% having at least some college education. We also have among the least amount of citizen complaints per officer of any law enforcement agency in Massachusetts.

Whether you want to believe it or not, there is a correlation.

 

Your area is outside of Bolgerburg?

 

Sorry, Bruce. I wasn't aiming my barb at you.

While you make the fact of correlation quite obvious, there are those who would use this correlation as justification. That was my point. Call it a preemptive strike, if you will.

Someone mentioned, I believe, that raising the pay probably won't solve the problem by itself. I would tend to agree with that. Corruption is rife not only in the police by throughout NO, and I would add Louisiana, politics. It is part of the culture.

marilynd

 

Re: Re: New Orleans explained

I think politics and personalities have a lot more to do with it than race. Governor Kathleen Blanco, who is white, was about as incompetent as one could be in the days leading up to the storm. Instead of accepting help from the President ahead of time, she chose to play politics, to not accept help from "the enemy" (Republicans), and we'll never know how many lives that decision cost.

On the flip side, Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, who is black, seemed to be the one person that gave rescue & relief efforts the boot in the ass they needed to get organized and moving.

 

I don't think I mentioned a thing about race or even implied it. Race has little to do with anything - much less corruption.

Like Bruce mentioned, Kathleen Blanco proved that race has little to do with competence. Although FEMA certainly screwed the pooch on this one, the mayor of NO and the governor of LA have to take equal, if not more, blame due to their incompetence.

Getting back to police wages. I think they showed a direct correlation between wages and the amount of corruption in a given department (and state). In areas like CA and MASS where the police are paid pretty well (the average is $85K a year base in Nor Cal - some departments like Berkeley and Sunnyvale DPS and Santa Clara you can make upwards of $100K or better with educational benefits and advance POST certificates) corruption is much lower. It also depends on what you call corruption. Is corruption accepting free coffee or half price donuts? Or is it unncessary force. And with that - what is unnecessary force. What you see on TV is a little deceptive. If you are dealing with a highly combative subject, you want to have as many officers as you can muster up to control the individual. Someone on PCP is even harder to control. In this situation, what a non-trained person would call brutatility would in fact be controlling the subject. Personally, I want my local cop to go home and serve another day. If I never got into that situation, I would comply with the officers demands. If he officer turned out later to be wrong - of course I would take action. But on that day, I would avoid hurting myself and the officer which can lead to other problems.

Wow - sorry - long winded. Going back to NO - the FBI has been looking into systemic problems with the department for the last decade. It was even profiled on 60 minutes. They had problems before Katrina, and have problems today. IMHO - it is all about leadership. The chief needs to set the example and stick to it. With the ACSD, the Sheriff put out a directive which said that if you violate 4 basic rules, you will be fired -- and rank or length of time didn't matter. (lying, drugs, accepting any gratuities and one other I have forgotten).

 

Re: Re: Re: New Orleans explained

I'm inclined to agree.

But considering how liberal knees jerk in opposite directions for the police and for race, I have to admit what I looked forward to all the highly syncopated dancing.

Actually, race probably is indirectly relevant. I think that for historical reasons some urban black communities do suffer disproportionately from social pathologies, of which crime is one. If a police department recruits heavily from that community, and if it offers uncompetitive wages for very demanding work, then it's probably going to attract a higher number of problem recruits than another department might.

I don't know, Bruce. Personally, I just can't get behind all this highly-politicized rip-each-other-to-shreds crap. When the cable news networks (including Fox) suddenly moved en-masse from disaster coverage to muckraking, I knew that it was probably time for me to change the channel.

In real life, everyone is a human being. Nobody is a god. In disasters, people usually have to improvise on the fly. Results will never be perfect. So results can't be judged by the standard ofperfection, and every deviation from perfection can't be interpreted as if it were an instance of personal evil.

Obviously results should be critiqued after the event and everyone should learn from the experience. But that probably shouldn't be an adversarial process and the purpose shouldn't just be to see political opponents' heads roll. We don't need human sacrifices.

I think that the locals did make mistakes. The state made mistakes. The feds made mistakes.

So did the press, for that matter. TV's lurid and largely false reports of shooting and armed gangs kept many first-responders out of NO until they could be backed up with unnecessary armed force. False reporting of large-scale deaths and rapes at the Superdome and Convention Center contributed to a sense of hysteria. (Too many blacks in one place, I guess.) In real life, though the crowds were hungry, uncomfortable and often justifiably angry at the government's slow response, they basically did what they could to help one another and may have shown the most dignity of anyone involved.

But whatever mistakes occurred shouldn't obscure the fact that a metropolitan area of 1.5 million people (for you Europeans, that's about the size of Merseyside) was largely evacuated in a matter of hours. (And when you add the even more devastated Mississippi Gulfcoast region, including important cities like Biloxi, you have a total of well over 2 million people stretched across 100 miles. There are entire countries smaller than that.) Those people have fared a lot better than I would have expected. The individuals that remained behind in New Orleans were rescued in a few days. Total deaths in the disaster were less than 1,000 people. And the economic impact of losing a major metropolitan region has been absorbed by the rest of the economy surprisingly well.

Those are successes. BIG ones. But for some incomprehensible reason, the conventional wisdom is that this Katrina thing is a debacle and a national disgrace.

(I'm more inclined to think that all the self-destructive national negativism is a national disgrace.)

He impressed me too.

Maybe one of the lessons of this is that future big-time disasters (like the inevitable California earthquake) will need a single take-charge czar with real command authority over federal, state and local agencies. I can understand that state governors and local mayors might find themselves a little out of their depth or even rendered ineffective by local damage and by severed communications. But replacing them is going to run up against all of the Constitutional problems involving usurpation of state and local authority.

So perhaps state governors should be more practiced in voluntarily delegating actual decision making to a national team of professional disaster-responders when things are getting out of hand. And if that's going to be FEMA, then they have to be up to the task and they can't be permitted to drop the ball.

As Honore showed, the military may be better suited than civilians to that kind of task. The military has the communications, the transport, the guns if necessary, lots of practice in maintaining unit cohesion and operating effectively under the most adverse conditions imaginable (combat) and forces ready to move on their commander's word.