California Pacific University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Rich Douglas, Jan 18, 2002.

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  1. Dr Dave

    Dr Dave New Member

    As an alumnus of the CPU DBA program, let me just state a few facts and opinions here.

    1) The CPU DBA is, like many, if not most, DBAs, a professional doctorate aimed at the scholarly practitioner, rather than a research/teaching doctorate for the practicing scholar. There's a difference. While the focus of the DBA is on applying theories from a broad base out in field, that of the PhD is on contributing new knowledge in a very narrow, highly specialized area.

    2) CPU itself clearly states of its DBA that "It is not designed for the pursuit of a career in teaching." Nor do holders of the CPU DBA, myself included, make any pretenses otherwise. Why would we? It's a practitioner's, not a teaching, degree. Does the DPA, DHS, PsyD, etc. try to pass off their credentials as teaching degrees? I don't think so. Nor does the DBA. It is true that business schools are hiring more DBAs now than previously--but RA doctorates only, which is appropriate. Students are demanding the practical perspective (RA) to counterbalance the purely theoretical one.

    3) Accredited, traditional PhD in Business programs do require several research methodology courses. (That is not always so for nontraditional RA schools! When I was enrolled in The Fielding Institute's PhD in HOD, Inquiry & Research was one KA in which the student could certainly attend some optional regional cluster meetings in epistemology, cultures of knowing, electronic database research, etc., and had ample suggested readings, but could still structure the KA as he wished, as long as the learning contract was approved, and as long as he could demonstrate depth and breadth of knowledge in the KA paper.) Again, Fielding is RA.

    4) As has been subsequently pointed out here, CPU absolutely has a research component for its DBA, unlike both CCU and SCUPS, two prominent state-approved competitors. As far as the related coursework goes, CPU requires the Business Research Methods course as well as Statistical Methodology. What is not clear in the brief program discription is that there is some flexibility allowed in the Doctoral Project. The project can take the form of a) a classical five-chapter dissertation in which new knowledge is contributed to the field, b) a doctoral thesis whereby existing knowledge is synthesized, reorganized and presented in a novel way for the chosen topic, or c) a significant field project whereby theory is applied directly in the workplace and documented as a study. The choice is formalized in the proposal submitted by the candidate. Thus, anyone believing that the CPU DBA is "courses only" or "just an MBA equivalent" needs to reread the catalogue more closely. Oh, and there is a proctored comprehensive exam as well.

    5) For the record I completed the CPU DBA in one year. How? But focusing on nothing but the DBA program and putting all other after-work and weekend activities on hold for the duration. (It was not what one would have called a "balanced life".)

    6) Finally, I'll reiterate my view of the value of a DBA in Corporate Americana. Essentially, the MBA has long been considered the terminal degree for executives and managers. My observation over the years is that neither the Harvard DBA nor the CPU DBA (good gosh, do I dare mention them together in the same sentence?!?!) will enhance one's compensation. Why not? For the fundamental reason that while written job specifications sometimes do require the MBA, they virtually never call for PhD or DBA degrees. Because job specifications are in turn linked to job families and salary administration bands, companies will not normally pay for credentials above and beyond the job specifications as given.

    7) So what's the point of attaining a doctoral degree in the corporate world? It's an individual thing, but here are some common reasons: a) It provides an intellectual and stimulating experience for the individual and further enhances capabilities. b) It helps (along with professional certifications) to competitively differentiate one from the crush of the MBA masses. c) If one is in late career, it can help validate that career, which can be personally rewarding--i.e., self actualization. d) In consultancy, it can add credibility to one's professional bio.

    I hope this helps.

    David A. April
    BA, University of Massachusetts at Amherst
    MBA, Boston College
    ACM, Boston College
    DBA, California Pacific University
    CAM, Institute of Certified Professional Managers
    CM, Institute of Certified Professional Managers
    CRM, Institute of Certified Records Managers
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    An attractive argument. But it ignores the "time bomb" factor that, while lessened by the nature of CPU and California Approval, is not entirely eliminated. Even people with degrees from good, unaccredited schools sometimes run into difficulty with how their degrees are perceived. And if one accepts your point that it (the DBA) doesn't have much bearing on promotion and pay, why bother, given the potential downside?

    (That was a question, not an opinion or judgment.)
     
  3. Dr Dave

    Dr Dave New Member

    Hi Rich,

    My take on the "time bomb" factor is that it all lies in the up-front presentation. During the interviewing process, you will know instantly if a particular interviewer is taking an interest in the degree. Questions will arise such as, "Did you have to do a residency in California?" In my opinion the key is to respond forthrightly. The applicant needs to carefully explain that the DBA was done through distance learning, that it is state-approved and not RA, that it required the traditional elements--courses, proposal, doctoral project, and proctored comprehensive exam, and that it works well for some people in meeting their goals but not everyone. That answers the question, discloses the non-RA nature of the degree at the very outset, and gives additional information about the program as well.

    I really believe that when "time bombs" explode, it's because people are attempting to pass off non-RA degrees as RA or RA-equivalent. This happens, I think, far more often with illegitimate degrees. If a state-approved degree is properly described and discussed during in the hiring process to avoid surprises, then there should likewise be no surprise repercussions later for the degree holder who was nothing less than forthright in the process.

    Incidentally, I once wrote to Dr. Bear specifically asking whether he thought California Pacific posed any "time bomb exposure". I don't have his reply in front of me at the moment to quote (would have to look through my papers), but essentially he thought CPU had a solid reputation as a state-approved school, and he doubted it would pose a time bomb problem for me. So far he's been correct in that assumption.
     
  4. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    "An attractive argument. But it ignores the "time bomb" factor that, while lessened by the nature of CPU and California Approval, is not entirely eliminated. Even people with degrees from good, unaccredited schools sometimes run into difficulty with how their degrees are perceived. And if one accepts your point that it (the DBA) doesn't have much bearing on promotion and pay, why bother, given the potential downside?

    (That was a question, not an opinion or judgment.)"


    Rich,

    Just a reminder that "time bombs” are not limited to State Approved University, It can also include RA! But I am sure that when it happens to a RA degree holders the Media will focus in something else not where holders got the degree.

    I am an accountant and in my field what counts is the CPA certificate BBA +30 more hours so you can get it( and you can easy make six figure income), MBA. DBA etc will be for enhance purposes. So, when ifyou have someone applying for an accounting in a Job most likely:

    CPA certificated VS. Non CPA Certificate but RA DBA in accounting, who you think will get the job?

    CPA gets right given by the STATE, which other words I have a credential given by a State Agency. So I am State approved to certify Financial Statement. I am player in both field accredited and state approved, I bound strongly by the rules however.

    It is where and how you put you credentials that count and of course who you know. I am looking forward to hat the DBA in accounting from Argosy University (piece of cake) in conjunction with the CPA certificate.

    I see you are slowly but surely becoming an authority.
     
  5. Dr Dave

    Dr Dave New Member

    On the CPU research component:

    In my post above on Cal-Pacific, I had mentioned that a dissertation, thesis, or field project can be submitted for the research component. I had meant to give a couple of examples of field projects, but forgot to. So here goes. I know one former DBA candidate who's a marketing consultant. As a field project, he actually authored a book manuscript (I believe a how-to on marketing channels) which, per his proposal, met the requirements of the doctoral project--and, he later got it published! Another DBA candidate in a foreign telecom company did extensive research on outsourcing. He then wrote a very comprehensive corporate manual giving guidance on corporate outsourcing. In both cases, the book manuscript and the manual, the candidates were applying theory at a practical level in the field. Those are two field projects that I know of, but I'm sure that over the years there have been many other interesting ones at CPU. In my own case back in 1996, I went the thesis route, writing on corporate governance. (With Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, etc., if I were writing it today, you can bet the emphasis would be entirely different!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2002
  6. Ee

    Ee New Member

    What type of "time bomb" ? A state degree is still a legitimate degree. Unless, we are talking about a fake degree, or one that is bought with NO work done.

    I am also curious to note that there are many people who are well informed or educated would willingly to brand state approved degrees as from some form of mills or a 'sin' to possess one. In my opinion this conduct is not appropriate. It goes to show that there is no respect for the state laws. If anyone is not satisfy with state approved degrees, go and seek it out with the state authorities rather than labelling state approved institution as mills.

    I have also noted many people have been carrying the so called "time bomb" with them all their successful lives but yet to see it detonated! Why is that so? Please for heaven sake, do not conclude that state approved degrees are "time bomb" !
     
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    A few points.
    1. Unaccredited degrees are not legal in all states. This means that they are not completely legitimate contrary to what you seem to assert.
    2. Many people will automatically equate unaccredited with degree mill and fake degree. It may be a "time bomb" in their eyes even if some work was done for the degree.
    3. Even your "NO work done" is a potential gray area. For example, I've seen one fellow claim that a simple book report was a dissertation, proving that he had earned his Ph.D.
     
  8. Dr Dave

    Dr Dave New Member

    Hi Ee,

    I agree with your viewpoint. I concentrated my own response on sufficiently educating the prospective employer to ensure that there could be no possible misunderstanding about an unaccredited degree, should that question be specifically raised in an interview. Having said that, I agree with you that state-approval is state-approval, making the degree a legitimate one, as opposed to, for example, a mill operation's degree where one simply buys it for cash.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2002
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Don't get me wrong; I'm a cautious fan of CPU. I'm a San Diego native, and I've been interested in nontraditional higher education since 1978. I've met with Dr. Dalton (the owner of CPU), where he was quite cordial. He was a bit snippy in an e-mail exchange a few years ago, but that doesn't reflect on the quality of the school.

    Speaking of which, I'm not addressing the quality of the school, just how it might be perceived by others (employers).

    I would like to emphasize that yours have been the most insightful and considerate comments regarding the utility of degrees from the better California-Approved schools. Thanks for your valuable input.
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Gee, and after only 24 years....:rolleyes:
     
  11. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member


    What you meant to ask was when did you stop beating your wife. Question, not an opinion?

    Why bother.

    Many people having worked a long time in their occupations seek more knowledge and challenges. They may take an MBA and thirst for more.

    Cost is usually not a big factor in MBAs, if one selects the right program. A PhD from a regionally accredited doctor factory like The Union Institute can run $ 30,000 to $ 60,000.

    Away from academics, out in the real world, education other than minimal standards is irrelevant. People advance through their abilities and connections.

    It is totally reasonable for someone to want a doctorate in their field, that will not advance their career for $ 5,000.

    It is less reasonable for someone to pay $ 30,000 to $ 60,000 for a doctorate that will not advance their career. They still have a degree that graduates of residential programs will teehee behind their backs.

    There is a place for state approved programs, as long as the students understand the limited use of their degrees in academics.
     
  12. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    I just couldn't let this one slide by.

    Rich is and has been for many years considered to be an authority on DL by quite a number of people. His interest in the field predates almost everyone here at degreeinfo by quite a few years, and it would be difficult to find anyone other than possibly John Bear with greater depth of knowledge in DL.

    Like all of us who follow the field, he has occasional moments where he's quoting info from memory that's since changed, but that doesn't diminish the value of his insights.

    And, as has also happened to several regulars, he's actually had the experience of being hoodwinked by a slick operator... but he recognized it, owned up, and has been one of the most visible opponents of the school in question (MIGS/CEU) ever since.

    In my book, it takes an incredible amount of guts to stand up in front of everyone that's been saying "You're being suckered" for a year and say "You were right. I should have listened." Rich pretty much did that, and he continues to offer valuable insights based on his knowledge and experience in the field.

    I would say that he "became an authority" a very, very long time ago.
     
  13. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Rich certainly is one of the more knowledgable people in the area of distance education. The facts are there, the opinions need some work.
     
  14. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    And, as has also happened to several regulars, he's actually had the experience of being hoodwinked by a slick operator... but he recognized it, owned up, and has been one of the most visible opponents of the school in question (MIGS/CEU) ever since.

    Agree,
    Steve was always right when he constantly attacked, MIGS/CEU. He had a greater vision and did open some eyes.

    Certainly Rick has become an authority long time ago in a small circle that reach all over the world, I have a lot respect for his opinion, and to some extend has basically occupied Steve Levicoff place, in some way.

    I would love to see some publish material in the Market by Rick so that way we can definitely call him an authority. But always is good to remember that we may have a glass ceiling.
     
  15. Ee

    Ee New Member

     
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    I think that you forgot to mention the opportunity cost and time invested. A CPU degree may only cost $5,000 but the time involved has an opportunity cost that can be greater than the $30,000 that you mention.

    If someone wants an unaccredited doctor just for the feeling of achievement and self-improvement it is fine. But education is an investment also, if you going to invest your time in something with very limited use you better make sure that you don’t want more than personal satisfaction.

    If the PHD or DBA doesn’t really add too much to one’s pay, then you will expect at least to be able to teach with it. For consultancy purposes, an unaccredited degree can be harmful and can put in doubt your competence. You have to remember that few people understand accreditation and for most the degree is back or white.

    In someone is already going to invest time and effort on a degree, he better try to get the best he can get.

    If the accredited DBA or PhD is out of one’s budget, one could invest his time is a more affordable credential that could satisfy personal interests and professional enhancement like a CPA, CFA or CMC license.
     
  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

     
  18. Ee

    Ee New Member

     
  19. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

     
  20. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Actually, this reason is exactly why degrees that are legally-conferred but not regionally-accredited still have value beyond the knowledge gained by the student.

    Dave
     

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