John Bear seeks advice on military credentials, for ABC

For their next go-'round on fake degrees and credentials, Good Morning America wishes to focus on the military: officers, especially high ranking officers with either (a) degrees from bad and fake schools, or (b) improperly claimed degrees from real schools.

Does anyone happen to know whether the resumes or biographies of officers are available in any public way, internet or otherwise, or requestable through Freedom of Information act?

Many thanks for thoughts here, or personally to [email protected]

 

All I know is that my Regents degree qualified me to go to OCS. (If I actually decide to go is another story all together.)

They could care less about my Masters degree.

But they did check for accreditation.

I have the privacy act statement that they gave me sitting in my car. I'll look over it later and see if anything stands out. From what I understood all information that I gave them remains confidential.

 

Will another military officer commit suicide after the expose? Remember the navy admiral who committed suicide about five years ago after it was exposed by one of the networks that one of his medals was either not properly awarded or was a fake.

 

Ike: Will another military officer commit suicide after the expose? Remember the navy admiral who committed suicide about five years ago after it was exposed by one of the networks that one of his medals was either not properly awarded or was a fake.

John: Admiral Mike Boorda killed himself shortly before a scheduled meeting with Newsweek magazine, which wanted to talk to him about a Vietnam valor medal he wore, before they put anything in print. There was no public exposé. After his tragic death, the information that came out suggested that he probably did deserve the medal he wore, but it had not been officially awarded to him.

His death is terribly sad, of course, but it doesn't seem appropriate to suggest that he was hounded into it by a hostile media. (And of course there is the issue of a person that volatile with his hand, literally, on the nuclear trigger.) Boorda, incidentally, was a high school dropout who lied about his age to get into the Navy, and rose to its highest rank, performing brilliantly by most accounts. So much for the value of a college education or degree, eh?

 

Let them do their own dirty work. In the end the hunters become the hunted.

Given time, people fall on thir own swords - those who provoke the issue, in the end, become the issue themsleves.

This type of behaviour may be the order of the day for journalists, but for some of us, it exhibits a trait that belongs to a lower form of humanity.

Do some work in the prison service, as I and Rich have, and witness what happens to a "grass" or as we say out here a "dog" - one who barks about another.

I don't support fraudulent activity in any context, but neither do I support witch hunts
such as this forum has seen in the past. I have only come back to make these comments as several have posted the above message to me and expressed their concern and disgust. I publicly support their yet unpublished feelings.

What about:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ..."

"There but for the grace of God go I...."

Most Volumes of the Sacred Law include similar passages and cautions. I was TAUGHT TO BE CAUTIOUS, and entreat others similarly taught, so to be.

Peter French
MEd MAcc (www.une.edu.au) CMA
Melbourne, Australia

 

I must agree with Peter - wholeheartedly.

As I've expressed in the past, these type of witch-hunts add no value to this board. This venue of sensentionalism belongs with Jenny Jones or Jerry Springer. I would hope that we would aim for higher aspirations. Let ABC bring Geraldo in for this one.

I had hoped that we had moved beyond this.

Barry Foster

 

I would suspect that the FOI would not be useful in gaining access to personnel records. I wonder if a thorough search of the internet wouldn't come up with something.

The Air Force is very good at screening such things. All officer educational records are handled by the registrar's office at the Air Force Institute of Technology. While they get a bit bogged down sometimes, they know how to check for accreditation. And because this checking is done centrally, it tends to be accurate. On the other hand....

Right after I'd purchased and read my first BG (6th edition), I met an Army major with an MBA from Pacific Western. He had no difficulty getting it put on his record. At the time, the Army tended to enter these things in a de-centralized fashion. I doubt Army regulations allowed such a degree to be entered, but when you're running it by some clerk, anything could happen. (This is still true of Air Force enlisted records. Each base's education office makes the determination and entry into the records. I used to be one of those nimrods.)

Rich Douglas

 

The award in question (Bronze Star) was properly awarded to Boorda, and he had every right to wear it. What got him in hot water was the "V" (for valor) device he wore on the Bronze Star ribbon itself. The "V" device is given when the Bronze Star is awarded for heroism in the face of enemy fire. Apparently Boorda did qualify, but as John mentioned, the "V" device was never officially authorized for him.

I also have to disagree with the reactions so far. People who use fake degrees, especially those in high-profile, respected positions (such as a military officer), devalue legitimate DL with their actions. When they're exposed, I think it sends a pretty strong message to those who might have been thinking about doing the same thing.

People with fake graduate degrees especially know better. They're the ones who take the chance of placing the timebomb, I'm not going to feel the least bit guilty if I help light the fuse.


Bruce

 

When I was in the Navy, I met Admiral "just call me Mike" Boorda several times. He is every thing being in the military is about. He started as an E-1 and went all the way to the top. When he became the Chief of Naval Operations, he reinstated the Seaman to Admiral Program, which had not been offered for some time.

One of the things that made him so admirable was his integrity. He believed that although he had a great responsibility, he was no better than the men and women who served with him. His sad death, in my mind does not mean that we should gloss over issues that are important to this nation. In fact, I would think that Admiral Boorda would say that it is our duty to expose lapses of integrity in this country.

 

I can’t agree more. Those buying and using fake diplomas should be ready to face the consequences of their actions. My grand father back in Africa once said that a man who brings home ten bundles of ant-ridden firewood is inviting all the lizards in his village to a gala. He should not complain when all the lizards in his village converge in his home for the party to which they were duly invited. Those using fake degrees should have only themselves to blame if they are exposed.

 

And thus it is perfectly OK for national press to show up at someone's door one morning for a nation-wide public pillorying?

As I understand it, these people show up with cameras, microphones, and pointed questions at the most inopportune times, and the mark has no warning whatsoever.

Did your grandfather have national television for local sins in mind?

Face it -- what it boils down to is that the media enjoy watching people squirm because they know it gets a rise out of their viewers. This has as much to do with it as the need for uprooting the problems. People like to watch others suffer. If they didn't, they would instead offer them a way out with some saving of face.

I'm glad that so many here are perfect, because it makes up for my numerous imperfections -- all is in balance.


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Quinn

 

I guess I'd have to ask the personal motivation. Why?

 

Because any show that would make a national issue of this:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA020115Late_video_jailed.html

Has simply got to have a monopoly on ethical, rational journalism.



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Quinn

 

So I'm clear, I'm not suggesting that such folks be pandered, protected, etc. But why would we - regulars on this board - want to participate in such extreme public exposure. Why would we even *want* to do such a thing??? I can't imagine what it does to people's lives - and their spouses - and their kids.

Of course, those who engage in this won't feel that pain. You'll be insulated, continuing to socially construct a justification such as been posted this far.

Would you do this to your sister? Brother? Friend? Son? Daughter? Then why in the hell would you do it to *anyone*!!!

As those who have read my posts in the past, I'm all for the highest integrity and accountability. This is neither. From my understanding, a major purpose of this board is consumer education (or so I have thought), not to participate in public floggings. Leave that for the National Enquirer. Let's set a higher bar.

Quinn is right on. We're not talking about local exposure. We're talking about national television, folks.

This type of activity embarrasses me - that I would be a contributor of a board that belongs to the throng that - through the darkness of anonymity and quietness of a snitch - somehow enjoys public exposure of another's mistake. Perhaps even a mistake of distant past, or a mistake made without understanding the issues.

What's next? Writing down license plates of speeders? Taking photos of people who frequent prostitutes?

I - for one - will have no part of it and will speak loudly against it. I would hope that I hear other voices besides Peter, Quinn and I. This is serious stuff, folks!

We can agree to disagree, but I remain angry at the havoc such a thing might introduce to peoples lives. I don't care if your an admin of the board or even a writer of DL opportunities. It's wrong. There are other ways besides national TV.

Barry Foster

 

There is no personal motivation. I don't spend my spare time searching for prominent people with fake degrees and forwarding my findings to ABC.

In the last GMA segment, I "discovered" 2 out of the 3 people exposed with Columbia State degrees, the Love Doctor and the court administrator. These people had important jobs that held immense influence over other people's lives, the fact that they had fraudulent credentials should worry the hell out of everyone.

However, it was them, not I, who bought the fake degrees and placed them in their resumes. It took all of about 5 minutes with a Google search to find both of them with the Columbia State degrees featured prominently in their bios. They were not only stupid enough to obtain jobs with their fake credentials, but also arrogant enough to post it on the Internet and then expect no one to catch it.

This all seems to boil down to what I consider an appaling lack of willingness to assign blame to anyone. The first thing a defendant in a high-profile criminal case will do is try to assume the mantle of victimhood in order to avoid responsibility. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe in holding people responsible for their actions.

My take is very simple....you buy a fake degree, you run the risk of having it come back to bite you in the ass. When that happens, the blame lies with that person, not the one who merely pointed out what should have been obvious already.


Bruce

 

I fully support Peter's view. What happened to MIGS reflects "In the end the hunters become the hunted."

In my opinion the right path is to go busting mill operators. But, taking on the consumer does not seem right. The operators are the ones that enriched themselves by fraudent means.

 

The darkness of anonymity? Besides being a bit melodramatic, you're off base with that one Barry. Any of the dolts who've been exposed on GMA so far need only watch their segment to see John Bear large as life.

As for me, I couldn't care less if the Love Doctor or the court administrator know that I'm the one who blew the whistle on them. They're the ones who took the chance with the fake degrees, they should at least be adult enough to acknowledge it was their mistake, not mine.


Bruce

 

I don't consider it melodramic. It's what is - the person exposed has no clue who you are - unless exposers clearly identify themselves to the exposed. Is that the process?

Otherwise, let's be honest with ourselves and call it what it is.

 

Life itself will hold these people accountable. We've got plenty of GMAs, National Enquirers, etc., etc., that play the role of national expose'. I would hope that this board would not choose that path - or become a breeding ground for such. I'm even more concerned when it comes from those percieved as authorities and leaders.

Bruce, I feel we share closly aligned views re: bogus degrees - if not identical. We've both argued identical points in many threads here. You've seen me confront those who fluff unaccredited degrees - on the basis of consumer info. You do an excellent job of the same.

Accountability isn't the issue. To me, the issue is a backhanded, slimy way of getting involved with TV exposes, etc. And using this board as a medium.

A key test of healthy ethics is equality. RE my unanswered question: In the same situation, would you give ABC the name of your friend, wife, son?

Barry Foster

 

Of course not. Neither would I, as the old saying goes, write my mother a speeding ticket. That's human nature, not a test of ethics. I seriously doubt that you'd turn in your wife, friend, or son if you saw them shoplifting, nor would I expect you to.

Now that I've answered the question unequivocally, I can qualify it. If my wife, friend, etc. had a job that held influence over other people's lives (such as a psychologist) and they obtained the job with a bogus credential, I'd make sure they quit the job or I would turn them in, because I wouldn't want it on my conscience if they screwed up someone else because of incompetence.

Perhaps the one thing hurt most of all by bogus degree holders is the whole concept of DL itself. Every time a scam like Columbia State is allowed to flourish, it taints legitimate DL schools. To the average person, what's the difference between TESC & Columbia State? One thing I appreciate about GMA is that they are sure to explain that there are legitimate DL schools.

Like heroin, cocaine, and marijuana, bogus degrees exist because people keep buying them. We've found that the most effective way to discourage street-level drug sales & prostitution is to conduct reverse stings and target the customers instead of the supplier. Eliminate the demand, and the supply dries up.

Perhaps by seeing a few degree timebombs detonate on national TV, it will discourage others from trying the same thing.


Bruce