Doctorate in English/Creative Writing

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Michael, Sep 23, 2005.

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  1. Michael

    Michael Member

    I have decided to enroll in National University's MA in English with creative writing electives.

    I was wondering if any of you know of schools which offer doctorates in English with creative writing emphasis, by distance or online.

    Thanks!

    Michael
     
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    The only doctorates in English listed in Bears' Guide are the University of Melbourne www.unimelb.edu.au , the University of New England www.une.edu.au , and the University of Teesside www.tees.ac.uk , but I can't guarantee that any of these offers a creative writing emphasis. The Union Institute www.tui.edu used to offer a doctorate in creative writing, though I can't guarantee whether that has survived the recent changes.
     
  3. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Hi Michael - Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    If a person were to earn a Masters degree in English (and then pick up some Creative Writing credits) or a MFA in Creative Writing (and then pick up some English Lit credits) they would then be qualified to teach, certainly at the High School level, maybe at the Community College level but maybe not at the BA level and probably not at the grad level (depending on their own publishing history). So then earning a PhD in English (concentration in Creative Writing) would be for the purpose of teaching at the BA or grad level? Right?

    If that is correct then I would suggest that you start looking into EdD programs. At the Doctoral level your work is, by definition, very specific, and you could tweak it in many different directions to suit your interests. Best of luck.
    Jack
     
  4. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    The MFA in Creative Writing is the terminal degree in the field. There are very many examples of post-secondary educators with an MFA and tenure track positions. This is also the case in many Theater and Art Studio positions.

    The MFA likely would not qualify one to teach at the secondary (middle school or high school) level in and of itself. Each state has specific teacher education requirements and an MFA is not going to include the supervised teaching experience in most cases.

    The MFA (creative writing) is an applied/studio art degree; In that it is based very heavily on the application of creative writing skills and much less on literature, research, or teaching.

    Those who teach "creative writing" at the college level are not often the same folk who teach freshman comp. Creative writing courses are often upper level and require a "specialist" who is usually well published.
     
  5. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Yes, well for years the MSW was considered to be the terminal degree in Social Work and then those PhD/DSW degree programs started popping up. Now, the PhD has become the minimum requirement for a tenure-track teaching position in the Social Work field (at least around these parts).

    Perhaps a similar shift is occuring in the Fine Arts field as there are quite a few DFA programs around. I don't know of any that are DL programs but a simple Google search will reveal dozens of DFA programs around the world. Most seem to be primarily geared toward the studio arts but I saw nothing from precluding a Creative Writing concentration.
    Jack
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Member

    Ted, Jack, and Coach,

    Thank you very much for your replies.

    My heart really is with the MFA in creative writing, but I have corresponded with several college English professors the last few days, and there is a general consensus that the best degree to obtain a college teaching position is a general MA in English, because they say that beginning instructors are usually assigned to teach freshman comp and sophomore lit, and of course that would necessarily be the case in community colleges. I had assumed all this, and yet, my desire is not in teaching these things but in teaching creative writing and some specific kinds of literature courses.

    However -- and this is a BIG however -- I am confined, at least for now due to family circumstances, to this general geographic area, and the professors that I wrote to who teach at colleges near here are all pretty much agreed that an MA in English is the best route to take.

    So, my choice is to go with my passion and probably not get a job, or to go with the general MA in English and do something somewhat similar to what I've been doing, except at a college instead of a public school.

    So, in practicality versus passion, I guess I'm leaning strongly toward practically -- but not entirely happily so.

    Just out of curiosity, if you were in my shoes, what do you think you'd do?
     
  7. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I think I'd go for the MA in English so you could get that community college professorship teaching English Comp and World Lit. But I'd also go for the MFA in Creative Writing. Whether you do them simultaneously or sequentially is up to you. If I'm not mistaken, freshman English classes usually absolutely reqiuired (unlike freshman history classes, which are an option within social science requirements). Therefore, as long as every college freshman in the US higher education system absolutely needs freshman English, you should be able to get enough teaching gigs to pay the bills. Then, after you've finished your MA in English and while you're working on your MFA in Creative Writing, look into various venues through which you might teach non-credit creative writing classes, such as through an extension program.
     
  8. anthonym

    anthonym New Member

    There will still likely be opportunities to teach creative writing at the community college level. It's not uncommon for 2-year schools to offer a lower level creative writing course as an elective. Here's the link to one such course at a community college in my area:

    http://www.gpc.edu/~gpchuman/outsyl/ENGL2600cco.htm

    Being a English 101/102 instructor would place one in a position to scout for talent for a creative writing course. There may even be an opportunity to create a course where none previously existed. An energetic instructor can make great things happen at a community college.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2005
  9. Michael

    Michael Member

    Ted, and anthonym,

    Thanks for your thoughts and good advice.

    The thing I really like about the MA program at National is that the lead professor says she will give me permission to take as many creative writing courses as possible and also to do a creative thesis!

    So, considering that, I have this question: Would it be better to work on an MFA after getting this degree, or to try to find a creative writing doctorate, or at least an English doctorate with creative writing included?
     
  10. anthonym

    anthonym New Member

    Michael,

    I'd go to the websites of various creative writing programs and check the credentials of the permanant faculty. I looked at a few and the focus seemed to be on the faculty members' published works over their academic background. I bet that if you emailed several department heads you could get some direction on the issue.

    Congratulations on coming to a decision on your master's degree.
     
  11. Michael

    Michael Member

    Well, since I posted last, I've been in contact with some former students at National U. about time required online, and they told me that I would need to spend at least 3-4 hours every evening online during the week and 8-10 hours online on the weekend for the master's degree.

    The problem is, I just don't have the time to spend that many hours online. So, I'm reconsidering my intentions to enroll in this program, although I haven't ruled it out yet because a professor is supposed to call me tonight about this.

    In the meantime, I''ve found three other schools where I can get a master's in English/Creative Writing, all of them foreign schools; I have already been in touch with them. They are: the University of KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa, Manchester Metropolitan University in England, and Southern Cross University in Australia.

    Of those three, which would you choose, and why?

    I very much need any feedback anyone can give.

    Thanks in advance.

    Michael
     
  12. Cate

    Cate New Member

    Hi,

    I just read your thread with interest. Do you mind if I ask what you decided to do, or more specifically, where you decided to attend graduate school?

    After reading your post, I am wondering if colleges here would hire someone with a foreign degree. Any info on that?

    I'm interested in the same degree you are, so I'm especially interested in what you might have found out, and what program you enrolled in.

    Thanks much!

    Cate
     
  13. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    An MFA student's two-cents worth

    I guess I'll pipe up here.
    Yes, the MFA is a studio degree. It is also, as the coach said, THE terminal degree, absolutely. It is the same creditial as the Ph.D. as far as qualification for university teaching positions.
    In our Low residency program at Queens University in Charlotte NC, (yes! I AM A SHILL NOW!), the seminars in the teaching of creative writing and other such pedigogically oriented classes go towards helping the graduates to secure teaching positions. Many teach at the university level and others in community colleges. The director of the program also offers to send out a letter of explaination demonstrating that there are more than the required eighteen english credits needed for teaching at an RA institution.
    Starting (arguably) with Warren Wilson's seminal program there are now many, many low residency MFA programs in the US. This may water-down the selling power of the MFA at some point in the future.
    National University has an MFA program offered entirely online.
    http://nu.edu/Academics/Schools/COLS/ArtHum/Degrees/715-505.html?CFID=1269726&CFTOKEN=59249948
    I'm not certain if I am completely sold onn that idea. I couldn't imagine not having some face-to-face interaction with the marvelous teachers I've had (Pinkney Benedict, Jane Alison, Ashley Warlick, David Payne). I treasure those residencies. But,
    I'm also a strong proponent of distance education.

    Most MFA programs are very selective and competitive. You MUST be able to write well, to be accepted.
    To secure a position teaching in a graduate program (or any other creative writing program) you must also have some publication credits. It's simply the nature of this beast.

    That said, I must also insert that the growing number of Ph.D. programs in creative writing may someday soon usurp the MFA's juice as the terminal degree.
    Antioch University in CA offers a one semester Post-MFA program for a certificate in the teaching of creative writing.

    http://www.antiochla.edu/programs_mfa_t-cert.shtml

    ten day residency in LA then a semester of distance and internship stuff, then an three day program and graduation.
    This is not a teaching credential, but the internship during the distance portion offers the kind of experience and networking that an up and coming teacher might need.

    CSUDH has a wonderful certificate program that is much cheaper but it is geared toward the community college career and is multi-disciplinary rather than specific for the writer.

    http://www.csudh.edu/ccteaching/

    In the spring, this is a distance program.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2006
  14. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Michael, IMHO UNED, in Madrid, has an excellent, rigourous PhD program in English. You´d decide on your especialization. The structure is similar to that of an American doctorate, and the price is way cheaper since it is heavily subsidized by the government. The normal language of instruction is Spanish but for the English philology program you can do everything in English...... You might expect to pay something like $ 500/600 a year, if you go full time (half if you register part time). You may have to go once to Madrid for your final presentation, but you could take your exams in the States, and a bunch of other countries. Madrid is a great city, with tons of entertainment possibilities, and excellent cultural offers. So it is worth the visit. You could also give a try here in Holland by trying to contact faculty members directly, and ask if they will be willing to supervise your work. I guess you would have to approach them with a somewhat worked out proposal, and your CV (that´s how my mother in law did it - she communicates through email, and her PhD is in Health Science). I think English is a subject that could be done independently to a great extent. You could try the UK as well like Ted suggested ... Probably it would look better on your CV.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2006
  15. Cate

    Cate New Member

    Thanks for sharing that!!!

    I appreciate it very much. What a wonderful program you are in; I've heard so many good things about that school. Just the fact that you were accepted shows you must be a very talented writer.

    I do prefer a program entirely online, for various reasons, and yet, I'm also a bit skeptical about it like you are. I'll have to check into NU's more.

    I do like to write, and I write for a local newspaper as a freelancer, and have a couple of magazine articles published. But what I really love is to write fiction! I'm also a tutor.

    A friend of mine who teaches at a local community college, told me to get a Master's in English. She said the creative writing jobs are tough to get, as everyone wants them. She said that the English comp. classes, etc., aren't as attractive and therefore easier to come by. But of course, that's one person's opinion, and wouldn't be true everywhere.

    Other people on the board said teaching creative writing is no harder to find a position in than teaching English classes. It would probably depend on the school, etc. Also, the degree you are getting is from such a wonderful school, that I believe it would make a difference and give you a definite edge.

    It appears there are different routes to get to where we want to go.

    It sounds as though you're really enjoying your program. If I didn't have kids at home I'd go for a program with short residencies.

    Thanks again for your very informative post!!

    Cate
     
  16. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Good Luck

    Hope you find what you are looking for. I have three kids to da crib and go for the six day rez's, but I understand. Sometimes it's more difficult for mommies.
    Let me know if I can help if you become interested in Queens.
    Dan B
     
  17. Cate

    Cate New Member

    Thanks much Jodokk. I love what you put in your post: "Your mother goes to college." It is a bit amusing!

    I wish you well, too, and all the others that contributed to this thread.

    Cate
     
  18. Witt

    Witt New Member

    This discussion has wandered a bit from your initial question about online doctoral programs in English, but I want to offer my suggestion of looking at Texas Tech University (www.ttu.edu) anyway. TTU offers an online Ph.D. in English with a concentration in rhetoric and technical communication--the first regionally accredited online doctoral program in English. TTU's online and on-campus program is considered one of the best in the nation.
     
  19. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    There is a very high quality option in this market space - Indiana University of Pennsylvania (I know it sounds like an oxymoron) has a "summers only" short residency program for established teachers. This isn't for everyone - but it is a good fit for some. One of my colleagues went this route.

    Regards - Andy

     
  20. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Your Mother

    Thanks much Jodokk. I love what you put in your post: "Your mother goes to college." It is a bit amusing!

    ;-) Stolen, of course, from Napolean Dynamite.
     

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