Gaza mosque welcomes London attacks

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Lerner, Jul 14, 2005.

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  1. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Just a little clarification. I´m having a dense day, and it´s late here already. Those papers I mentioned, of course, are private business, and they are not comparable with the EU, a public institution. But still, I would like them not to use euphemisms with terrorism, especially if they are Jewish controlled (iff that´s true).
     
  2. Anti-Semitism and Europeans...

    Takes a long, long, long, long time to die, doesn't it JLV?
     
  3. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Re: Anti-Semitism and Europeans...

    What a pity there is always some Bozo who screws it up, eh, Uncle Janko?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2005
  4. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Edited
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2005
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Interesting is that the terrorists are usually muslim, are there any terrororists that are chrisitian?

    I'm talking about Arab, Pakistan etc.
    It's interesting that the homoside bombers were all muslims that grewup in the west - this case in UK.

    Can comunities work closer with moderate muslims to reduce the hate and promote cooperation?

    As far as the Islam

    After Mohammed's first translator left ( because of "Satanic Verses" )
    - the illiterate Mohammed had a Jewish and Christian scribe ( servants
    ). They supplied the Biblical versers and modified them for Mohammed -
    to make them sound like a unique "isalmic" message. He indicates that
    the Jews and Christians ( People of the BOOK ) had their own recorded
    testament. The Arabic people did not. They needed one.

    Wait - Ishmael was sacrificed, not Isaac. How did Gabriel get that
    Biblical event wrong ? Counterfeit.

    Mohammed had epileptic seizures when he got his visions.

    Didn't Yeshua remove evil spirits from people with this illness and
    heal them ? Where is there a mention of Judaic Prophet with this type
    of illness ? Counterfeit prophet !

    Mohammed was not sure if the spirit, that cam over him, was evil or
    not. He thought evil. It was very physical with him. Would Gabriel
    hurt the person that Our FATHER wants his message to be communicated to
    ? His wife told him it was god, and he then believed it was from G-d.
    This sounds similar to Eve's role. The spirit continued to hurt him.
    Counterfeit messenger.

    Consider, not even Balam was hurt. It would seem that hurting people
    is not the L-RD's way to deal with HIS prophets.

    Paul was temporarily blinder by the Truth.

    The FATHER initially told satan not to hurt Job. Later, when satan
    said that he could not test Job's righteousness unless he hurt him.
    Then the FATHER said - do not kill him. satan has a history of hurting
    people to get his way, no the L-RD.

    The FATHER let satan do with Job as satan wanted. Perhaps like HE is
    allowing satan to use the islamic people.

    I not think that Our FATHER would instruct HIS Messengers to hurt HIS
    prophets.

    Why is the only way islam can prevent islamic people from converting to
    the Judao/Christian faith death ? Is that the Message of the FATHER ?

    Why would he chose a pagan god ( one from many ) to be the god whom HE
    would give him his message to ? Doesn't this tell you that Mohammed's
    law violated the FATHER's Law ? Would this basic violation of the
    first Instruction given to us, support your theory ?

    I would not question the items that are copied from the Bible, even the
    ones that support/state that the People of the Book are to be left
    alone and their land is theirs forever.

    There is more.

    Mohammed represents a counterfeit system. This system is meant to look
    like the real system, but has tragic flaws. Is not satan an expert in
    twisting the scripture ? Wont he use it to tempt you and have you
    worship him ? If he tried this with Yeshua, and thought he had a
    chance to win, what would he do with us ? Are we not warned ?
     
  6. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Very interesting post, Bill, and very clever analysis. Some of your questions are the Gordian Knot of this matter. This is my opinion to some of your ideas. What a pity others (except Nosborne48) didn’t jump in.


    Yes, Islam is having a harder time adjusting to world globalization than anybody else. Although the globalized world offers far more options to unify the umma (the Muslim community), which is the ultimate goal of these fanatics, the new communication technologies also offer another perspective about the world to millions of Muslims that not long ago were secluded in the obscurity of the Middle Ages. Also, as Little Fauss pointed in such an eloquent and graphic manner, Muslims came to realize about the indisputable superiority of the Western culture over the Muslim lifestyle, and this era just made it impossible to refute. To accept it and to adapt to it would probably seen a a capitulation, a recognition of their inferiority. ANd that´s how it is at least for some of them, the most radical ones (I see Muslims here who are perfectly “integrated” in the Ocidental way of life). Asian cultures were astute enough to take the best from the West, and adjust it to their ancestral cultures. Muslims are just anchored in a Middle Ages world and are subjects of a religion that is not only obsolete but a danger to anyone who doesn’t adhere to its principles. Attributing this terrorist phenomenon to poverty (otherwise Africans will be killing us by the hundreds on a daily basis), to lack of education (many of these people, starting from Atta to the London perpetrators, were University graduates), to previous aggravation and humiliation like the conflict Palestine – Israel, the war of Iraq, etc is simply irrational. To accept it is to confer legitimacy to those massacres we have witnessed the last years. It is just the essence of the religion. Do you remember the frog and the scorpion fable? It´s in its nature where the blame is to be found.


    Islam is not only a religion but a lifestyle, an ideology that doesn’t make distinctions between earthly and heavenly matters. While other religions´ realm dwell in the personal level of the individual, Muslims can separate them, and must strive to follow a set of laws (that were meant to regulate the life of believers 1400 years ago!!!). Europeans had to go through an Enlightenment to get that separation. Muslims should go through their own one, without foreign intervention, and without bayonets, so they can find their Montesquieu, if that’s what they want or, on the contrary, settle in their nihilism (and face the consequences). I´m very pessimistic about the future but the last Islamic Nations conference proposed an inner revolution to address all these issues. Unfortunately this news went basically unnoticed in the West. Or perhaps they just looked at it with skepticism.


    This is the real struggle, homogeneous consumerism versus tribal and religious fundamentalism (among which is included radical Islam but there are many more). I think, Bill, this is irreversible. This process conveys the disappearance of the states, frontiers are fuzzier than ever, and thus the inforcers of democratic principles, and we´ll have left are corporations. We´ll be consumers and not citizens. The post industrial, postmodernist society of the 21st Century can also become post democratic due to the pressure both centrifugue forces will exert on us. And I agree with you, the West must reflect upon it too.

    Only if fundamentalism is abandoned. In a while, Muslims will have Muslim political parties in Europe. Looking at their explosive demographics, what will happen when they constitute a majority or a strong minority? I cannot help but remembering the term Eurabia, coined by Bernard Lewis. Take a look at Londonstan, go to Brussels, to Madrid, to Paris, Amsterdam …. I hope the European experience is helpful to Americans. Soon you might be the only depositaries of Western culture.


    Regards
     
  7. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    How many churches or sinagogues are there in the Muslim world? Shouldn´t we act quid pro quo on this matter?

    And regarding the nomenclature the press uses to refer to pure terrorism, please take alook at this article by Daniel Pipes. That´s exactly how I think about this topic. I subscribe every single word.

    They're Terrorists -- Not Activists
     
  8. For once, we agree...

    JLV,
    Daniel Pipes is a scholar of the first order. I've referenced him many times in recent academic work.

    You (and he) are absolutely correct in your interpretation of this issue - terrorists are terrorists, and scum of the earth to boot.

    Thank you for pointing out this important lesson in the West's demise into political correctness to the point of near disarmament in the face of a life-death struggle between Islam and just about everyone else.
    Carl
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    JLV,

    Even MORE ironic is that throughout most of Jewish history from about 1000 C.E. through the 18th century, Jews lived fairly happily and largely unmolested as (literally) second class citizens in Muslim countries. During this period, Jews found life much more difficult in Christian lands.

    Classic example: The human tragedy celebrated as the "reconquest" of Spain by Their Most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella was followed IMMEDIATELY by the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and the establishment of a particularly vicious branch of the Holy Inquisition largely for the purpose of finding, torturing, and handing over for execution any person practicing Judaism who had ever been baptized, whether forceably or otherwise.

    This was also the period when the Judenstrassen were established throughout Germany and neighboring countries.
     
  10. drstrangeglove

    drstrangeglove New Member

    What total nonsense! You are as guilty as the those Arabs who are spoiling for a fight!

    The Middle East situation is clearly Arab v Israel. Not Muslims v West. Arab nations have been treated badly by first the colonial powers then america. Its now time to start building bridges not starting fights. there is a long way to go but have to start somewhere. a start would be to rebuild Iraq and Afganistan with a massive Marshall type plan. THis stopped Germany from starting another war - as clearly the revenge tactics after WW1 dis. Also build lots of Mosques and set up Islamic Schools to teach proper Islam. Otherwise it looks like its all about oil!!!!

    I live in Malaysia - a 60% Islamic country - violence is loathed here and despite a dislike for American arrogance there is no violent wishes and virtually every Muslim here totally hates the use of terrorism as it is against the teaching of Islam and it tarnishes the name of Islam. Those who commit acts of violence against unarmed civilians, women and children are commiting evil sins. Also vanquished military enemies in war, once surrended must be treated well and Islamic practice in the past (as in Malaysia now) is to Protect other religions right to worship.

    And dont forget who trained Osama bin Ladin and his men - the CIA! (and the Viet Cong and Saddam Hussein). Come on get real! pick better friends

    SO STOP WHINGING AMERICA STOP TRAINING TERRORISTS AND START BUILDING SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS, COMMERCE AND PLACES OF WORSHIP!
     
  11. drstrangeglove

    drstrangeglove New Member

    In Malaysia (and Indonesia) its quite common to have a Mosque, A Cathloic Church, a Protestant Church, a Hindu Temple and a Taosist Temple all on the same road! people here happily invite each other over for "open house" during religious festivals. eg in Chinese New Year Chinese will have Halal food and no Beef dishes (for Hindus) for there neighbours. All religions take their worshipping serioulsy here but just respect the others beliefs and get on with it.

    Its only in the US backed Saudia Arabian dictatorship that you see real problems..... and the royal family there use Islam to control their hold on power while they spend literally billions on booze, drugs and high class call girls in orgies! hardly religious.....the Middle East needs a lot of tender loving care from the world especially the developed countrie and the US. Short term oil interests are not worth it in the end
     
  12. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Doc, I think you are misunderstanding the whole thing. Reread it, please (this time paying attention). ;)
     
  13. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    drstrangelove,

    You would not, I suppose, represent Malaysia as any sort of open, free or democratic society?
     
  14. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Certainly, but don´t forget that Jews were living in Spain (not only Castile and Aragon) for over 1000 years prior to their expulsion, some ocuppying high responsability positions in the different Christian kingdoms. They were rejected stupidly, and it was our loss. I don´t know if it´s a consolation but in 1992 our King apologized in Israel over this sad incident (Moors, even though they demanded it, got nothing, and will get nothing. They invaded us). Those Sephardites were as Castillian as any other. Their descendants can get Eu/Spanish nationality any time they wish, and, for instance, a nice contribution has been made to the Sephardic Holocaust survivors Fund and so on. I refer you to Elan Steinberg, WJC executive director, for his opinion about contemporary Spain´s handling of the issue,which is excellent, I add.

    And regarding your comment, ok, Islam was tolerant with the people of the book, but as you pointed out Jews were second class citizens without some of the most elemental rights like buying property, or proselitizing, etc, ... Of course, better than being killed or expelled, but it is still way short of that so called tolerance of Islam and especifically the Umeyyad Caliphate Islam.
     
  15. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Actually, the son of a slave wife was considered to be every bit as legitimate as the son of the free wife. I believe that if you were to check the old Mosaic Law, you will find that the free wife is to bounce the child of the slave wife on her knee every bit as much as her own child. Ditto for the Code of Hammurabi. Ishmael is no more illegitimate than Gad, Asher, Dan, and Naphtali.
     
  16. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Actually, in the ancient world, "You shall be a wild ass of a man" was a blessing, not a curse. It meant, "You will become very self-reliant and, indeed, you shall be such a tough little s*o*b* that people will be sorry they f---ed with you." A very appropos blessing for some poor kid that gets driven away into the desert by a b****-goddess step-mother when he's only thirteen, for chrissakes.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I was not aware that the King of Spain (Carlos Bourbon y Bourbon, verdad?) made such gestures. I am gratified to see it; given the huge amount of time that has passed, I'm not sure such acts are in any way morally necessary. Therefore they are nothing but kindness of heart.
     
  18. JLV

    JLV Active Member

  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    JLV,

    I speak and read Spanish reasonable well. If you have a Spanish language link, I'd like to have it.
     
  20. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Yes, sorry about that. I remember now we had a conversation in Spanish a while ago. Anyway, I haven´t been able to find a lot about that apology in the Spanish language either. I went to the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and bingo! It took place on March 31th, 1992, exactly 500 years after the expulsion, with the participation of Pres. Chaim Herzog. I remember the ceremony perfectly as it received a lot of media attention back then. Soon after the reconciliation, we had the honor to have our King be the first one ever to deliver a speech at the Israeli Parliament.

    .http://www.mae.es/documento/0/000/000/622/Israel.pdf

    Now I am trying to find the literal words, perhaps in Sefarad 92.

    You know what, Nosborne? I´m glad he did it. It was a such a shame. I can´t believe we gave away such an important part of our identity.... I have visited often those juderías, the Jewish quarters, in Toledo, (which have been maintained intact after 700 years), and they still transmit the magic of those days. Honestly, it is simply espectacular.... You can see the Jewish heritage all over the city. I strongly recommend to visit that town. Part of my family is from there, and I am sure I have some Sephardic blood running through my veins. Anyway, please take a look at this article. I wish that apology conforted Sephardic descendants all over the world. Hopefully they know they have rights in Spain.


    Regards
     

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