Martial Arts Author from Mars!

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Jodokk, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Haunted!

    Yeah, that's the absolute truth. I feel like I'm haunted sometimes.
    I care only about this man using a less-than-wonderful ACADEMIC doctorate for financial gain in publishing through the sale of an intangable trust that the public has in the institutions of academia. This trust has both a dollar value and a value in the general furtherance of mankind's search for knowledge. The public must trust that a "doctor" is actually the person he says that he is. The public must believe in the legitimacy and honesty and the actual educational benefit of earning that doctorate.
    This case just happens to revolve around the martial arts and yes, having spent a life there, and having been emailed this information, I noticed.
    I feel the same way about our other author, from the same degree mill. However, he was outed quite efficiently.

    Dan B
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2005
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Haunted!

    I think that you and I disagree pretty strongly on this.

    I have never heard of this Doyle character of yours. But if his only sin is that he earned a degree from Columbia Pacific, then I'm not willing to trash him for that alone. I actually have respect for his accomplishment.

    Apparently you are fronting for some unnamed people who are trying to damage this man's reputation.

    Frankly, when I get the feeling that people are trying to manipulate me, I like to know who is doing it and for what purpose.

    What other author? Gray? He has never made any secret of the fact that he graduated from Columbia Pacific, so I don't know how anyone could have "outted" him.
     
  3. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    You got me!

    Wow! I can't believe it! You are so discerning! You got me. I represent the vast, anti-Doyle network of thousands. My supervisors will kill me now, I hope you are happy, Bill! That's why I've posted here for the last two years, quietly biding my time, waiting for the information about this man and his degree- mill adventure to come out and then... I pounced, like a tiger, like a wild elk in heat! HAHAHAHA! Oh, and you, who protect the last bastion of academic virtue, your beloved CPU, you will be laid low! Low, I tell you! We, of the illegitimate regionally and nationally accredited schools, we will conquer you, true of purpose and righteous of heart though you may be. We, of the wicked, evil, government-recognized conspiracy shall prevail. Do you hear!
    And yes, I have manipulated you. Without your knowledge or consent! HAHAHA! Yes, bow, bow before the power of the anti-Doyle forces! You will be assimilated! Resistance is futile, puny human!
    Oh, yeah, and also "you will order me a pizza, a Dominioes Pizza, with extra sauce and anchovies, yes ANCHOVIES!" I don't CARE if you hate them. You have no choice!
    And, one more thing... repeat after me to everyone you meet... "I loved it! It was much better than Cats. I will see it again and again!"

    HAHAHAHAHA!
     
  4. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Dan:

    Why are you so concerned about the academic degree, but--even having spent a life in the martial arts--you do not care at all about the question of martial arts ranks--even though national and international standards for establishing the legitimacy of these credentials clearly exist. I would think a person teaching martial arts without credentials that are backed by some national organization other than the local print shop is potentially far more damagoing and dangerous than an author with a doctorate from a once pretty well respected state approved university. If Doyle is writing about budo, then are his budo credentials not at least as important as the academic ones, I might ask.

    The question of credential legitimacy is a question of credential legitimacy--a person teaching kartate without credentials from an organization without very real links to Japan or at least a major national federation is just as much a fake as a person with a fake degree. The moral issues are the same.

    As to martial arts ranks, a lot of people like to say the issue is too complicated to make clear distinctions. Not so. Ranks are issued by appropriately government sanctioned federations or they are not. The test for a budo rank is simple--is it recognized universally or near universally in Japan, the country where the art originated. If a karate rank is not recognized by any major Japanese federation of JKF, then it is simply not a valid rank, internationally speaking.

    If you do not care at all about the martial arts, why mention your background and why start this thread--that is all I was wondering.
     
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    [Note: my interreligious knowledge does not extend to the various cults of personality and theopompic jargon of the martial arts. Whether Dr Doyle is an accomplished practitioner of the same I do not know, nor do I care. As to the ranks in martial arts, coming as I do from a religious tradition that has but a single ordination, lacking catholicoi, metrans, chorepiscopuses, stated clerks, rural deans, prothonotaries apostolic, and grand high raccoons, I readily confess that I find the discussion of gis, dos, budos, dosidos, and dorags as opaque as most normal persons find the discussion of obscure points of ecclesiastical hierarchy or plumage, and equally remote from the purposes of this board. But what the hey.]

    If one may ask two quiet questions:

    1) Does anyone know whether Dr Doyle got his degree from CPU during its halcyon days or at some other, less auspicious time?

    2) Is a person with a substandard degree who conceals its substandard character a substandard role model for kids?
     
  6. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    goodness!

    QUOTE]Originally posted by Craig Hargis
    Dan:

    Why are you so concerned about the academic degree, but--even having spent a life in the martial arts--you do not care at all about the question of martial arts ranks--even though national and international standards for establishing the legitimacy of these credentials clearly exist. I would think a person teaching martial arts without credentials that are backed by some national organization other than the local print shop is potentially far more damagoing and dangerous than an author with a doctorate from a once pretty well respected state approved university. If Doyle is writing about budo, then are his budo credentials not at least as important as the academic ones, I might ask.

    The question of credential legitimacy is a question of credential legitimacy--a person teaching kartate without credentials from an organization without very real links to Japan or at least a major national federation is just as much a fake as a person with a fake degree. The moral issues are the same.

    As to martial arts ranks, a lot of people like to say the issue is too complicated to make clear distinctions. Not so. Ranks are issued by appropriately government sanctioned federations or they are not. The test for a budo rank is simple--is it recognized universally or near universally in Japan, the country where the art originated. If a karate rank is not recognized by any major Japanese federation of JKF, then it is simply not a valid rank, internationally speaking.

    If you do not care at all about the martial arts, why mention your background and why start this thread--that is all I was wondering.
    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I get your twist now. Sorry, I didn't get you earlier. Ha, you are attacking me! And my martial arts. Oh, OK. That's fine. Well, what do you want to know oh great and grand Japanese sensei. Hmm? You know, I have a pedigree that is just fine, friend, but in your limited idea of what is legitimate, you wouldn't recognize my black belt in Kenkabo (an offshoot of kajukenbo)under Rip Revels, or my black belt in Tangsoodoo under Gary jones in Chuck Norris' older style United Fighting Arts, or my original 1973 ATA Tae Kwon Do Black Belts as legitimate because they have nothing to do with Japan.
    That has nothing to do with United States academic degrees. At all. Oh, yes, I do have a Brown Belt in Shotokan under Don Carter in Jesup, Georgia, I guess that makes me half-assed legitimate. And I studied Tomiki Aiki and Iado with Bruce Brown for four years with NO belt ranks. Also did a year of Shoringi kenpo with Thomas Parrot and David Felber in SC in '76, while I was trapped and that Bob Jones psycho bin.
    Yes, please find the Japanese sanctioning body for Jeet kune Do, for Take Name Do (Mr. Doyle's martial art), for Jodokkdo (My art), for Capoeira, for Savate, for Mauy Thai, for Kajukenbo, for Progressive Martial Arts, for One Hop Kune Do, for hundreds of other martial arts taught successfully here without the help of the Japanese. National and international agencies mean nothing. Unless you are talking about a few specific styles of Asian arts.
    Please, what on earth is your point? No, if one does not advertise that they are teaching "karate-do" they do not have any reason for participating in any "Karate-do" rank hierarchy or other such masonic ritualistic thingamabobness.

    You know, if your point is, that most folks don't care about academic degrees because most folks don't care about the tiny little world of the martial arts, then, OK. A pretty good point. But I still disagree with you. We should care. Really, I would be the first one to wish for a national certification program for martial arts instructors. If you are implying that MY martial arts rank is illegitimate and therefore I have no say here. Sorry, I have a few ranks that even the most constipated of "traditionalist fundementalists" would have to recognize.

    I am not interestedn in getting involved with your discussion about martial arts ranks. And if you are implying that Terrence Webster-Doyle is not legit because he teaches his own style of Japanese martial arts, Take Name Do, then I really have to disagree. And I would defend him. He has every right to do so because there are no laws or regulations against it. He also has every right to call himself a "grandmaster", "Doctor of the Martial Arts" or whatever he wishes. Not an ACADEMIC degree. Right?
    But a doctorate in "Health and Human Services"? From CPU, sorry, but no go! Not with me. Here's and idea, you enjoy supporting the idea of a degree mill issuing health opriented degrees and I will just take that curmudgeony side of not quite liking it. Deal?
     
  7. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Uncle Janko:

    I do not know when he got the degree--and that does seem to be an issu--perhaps a very important distinction.

    As to your question about the use of a substandard degree, I suppose it matters how substandard it is. If it is really and truly a fake degree, then it is obviously immoral to use it--especially in attracting "customers." If the degree is marginal--then it might be less so. Doyle does indicate where he got the degree. At least he is honest there. I have seen a lot of self help authors just say "Ph.D. in psychology" and not mention a school--that too seems problematic. (It seems like health food and nutrition and herbal medicine writers are notorious for indicating degrees without mentioning the school.)

    You are absolutely right--the organizational likeness and structural terminologies of martial arts and religion are much alike. Nice to talk to you again--it has been a while.

    Blessings
     
  8. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Again, that is the issue.

    Thanks Uncle, for teaching me focus. I am drawn to easily into tangential arguments by those who would stir the waters.
    Ow! Don't slap so hard!

    Any answers to the above folks? They are the central questions.
     
  9. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Dan wrote:
    OK, I get your twist now.

    Craig writes:

    No, not at all-- you missed it completely, but never mind --it is not important. It is not about YOU at all--just the nature of credentials in general--forget it. By the way, I would not expect there to be Japanese government sanctioning for non Japanese arts--budo is a Japanese word. It was just an example.
     
  10. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Oh, "blush"!

    Oh! Well heck, then, I apologize for my tone. Sorry.
    I think the really sad thing is this. Here I am, on the east coast. Two A.M. arguing about this silliness. You have an excuse, it's not late over there in CA. I really need a life! hahaha!
    Dan B
     
  11. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Immaterial as the only Asian true martial art you are apt to encounter is Hwa Rang Do. Now sit back and enjoy the responses.
     
  12. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: You got me!

    Please don't let your emotions unbalance you.

    I was simply referring to these remarks of yours, made in previous posts on this thread:

    And...

    Apparently somebody out there is busy trying to damage Doyle's reputation. You admit that you were doing their bidding by starting this thread.

    I'm just curious about who these people are and what their motivation is.

    It is kind of ironic that people who attack a man ostensibly because he earned a Columbia Pacific degree (I suspect that there's probably a lot more to it than that) pretend to represent a phony association for martial arts educational integrity.
     
  13. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Re: Re: You got me!

    Hey, Bill, I don't need my emotions to be unbalanced, I do a great job with THAT just sitting still! I was trying to be funny, sorry.

    But seriously, I quite agree with you. The email is dishonest, and ironically so. I have e-mailed several students and ex-students and we have a short list of who may be responsible. Does anyone know of a way to "trace" and email to it's source computer... I mean without costing a arm and leg.
    Thanks
    Dan B
     
  14. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Yes, the late Michael Echanis (sp?) is GOD! Funny mustache, but, I used his knife defense program for my DEA course back in the eighties at FLETC. Impressive bunch, a little culty, but who in the martial arts, isn't. I remember that early Joo Bang Lee Ohara book. Really good stuff.

    And... the only Mopar automobile was the '71 Hemicuda!
    Dan B
     
  15. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Hey, what's all of this friendliness? This is a fighting thread and I'm trying to stir things up. :)

    Well, let's see what they do with the new Charger with the 6.1.
     
  16. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Bonding

    Hell, I've been hit in the head so many times by friends that I take conflict as a bonding ritual. Therapy is what I need!
    Dan B
     
  17. renshi

    renshi New Member

     
  18. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Renshi:

    Okinawa is a prefecture of Japan as, of course, you know. While it is cetainly the main organization in Japan, JKF is not the only organization sanctioned by the government. The JKA has government sanction outside of the JKF. The Rengokai certainly does have recognition throughout Japan. IMAF and Butokokai are others. The Shotokai is sanctioned through the university athletic authority. What I said was that legitimacy of rank in Karate (not the ability of the practitioner--an entirely different issue) is BEST determined by the ranks recognition level in the country of origin--in this case Japan--Okinawa. I also said that other national federations like AAKF or ITKF or USANKF--where the organization is sanctioned by its own government or Olympic authority and in turn recognized by Japanese authorities well suffice. Nor did I say at that non-Japanese arts should be recognized by some organization in Japan as Dan seemed to suggest. I was using Japanese arts as an example. Usually the most prestigeous and unassailable ranks in karate do will have been issued by an organization recognized by the larger karate community in Japan and usually sanctioned by some ministry of the Japanese government or at least by a widely recognized foriegn federation usually sanctioned by its own government and in turn recognized by an authentic Japanese organization. Most Japanese karate is under JKF these days, including the student federations. Obviously grades issued by recognized fedearations and instructors on Okinawa would be virtually universally recognized in Japan. In practice, as it is clear you know, it is really just a question of lineage--good lineage usually automatically implies good organizations. At the same time organizations with names like Shoto Fu karate- rang do are unlikely to be much accepted in Japan.
     
  19. renshi

    renshi New Member

    Yes Mr. Hargis I do agree with the acceptablity of hybrid Fu-Fu styles, but I do know and recognize several non-sports US associations of Karate-do. These organizations are led by those with a strong and legitamate pedigree. The practice Japanese and Okinawan karate but have no connection to Japan or any government organization. These people were authorized to grant rank from their Japanese/Okinawan teachers. Now they have seperated they still retain those rights.
    Okinawa is a prefecture of Japan, but it is a seperate culture with a seperate identity. The Okinawans do not consider theirselves Japanese and the Japanese do not consider them ultimately Japanese. If my memory serves me right arent you affiliated with the American association ISOK?

    Take care
     
  20. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Renshi:

    I must not be very articulate; If someone has a good lineage then they have a good lineage--with all that implies. Even if they have no direct organizational ties to Japan or Okinawa, such ties could easily be re-established. I was talking about grade legitimacy in the martial arts as it mirrors accreditation in academics. Ranks issued by certain organizations in Japan or affiliated with Japan would widely correspond to accredited academic degrees. Certainly other organizations of quality exist--but usually members of such groups have no problem in joining the national federations. I do not think I am saying something that different from you. Simply this: (back when this thread was about the Doyle credentials) There are organizations and government sanctions in the martial arts world that function much like accreditation. I never said other grade sources are bad, just, as they say on degree info, they might have less utility in some areas of activity (like getting a national federation examiner or official license). My point was the Doyle martial arts credentials, be they good or bad, might be as important as the Ph.D. because he is, after all, writing about martail arts. That was my point--no more or less.

    Yes, I am in ISOK. ISOK is a yudanshakai that is rather democratic by nature--it is not a style organization. My personal grades are Shotokan grades (Japan Karate Do Shotokai).
     

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