best path to career change

And your post -- that is if your opinion therein is truly representative of those running the very organizations to which you refer -- illustrates just how wrong said organizations can get it, given half a chance.

So... what are you saying, here? I'll see your pain and raise you mine? There's a mature debating tactic -- but, from my observations, a Republican crowd-pleaser, all the same. And, anyway... I haven't worked a mere 60-hour week in 20 years. If that's what you consider "overtime," then I call.

IT people must get degrees, too, there, Biff -- sometimes resulting in lifelong debt, just the same as anyone else... or did you think all that increased revenue that nearly every university (probably including yours) now derives from its vast array of IT degrees was just for fun? An IT professional's increasingly-required certifications are on top of those degrees... and, perhaps, their lifelong debt.

Now that's not to say that only IT people have continuing education requirements. Far from it. But a $500 seminar or two once a year at an annual convention or trade show wherein one gets a chit as they leave the room which they can then use to evidence the completion of that year's minimum continuing education requirement is a far cry from the multiple certifcations -- each with multiple, college-level courses -- that IT people must typically have... all of which must be renewed annually, bi-annually, or tri-annually at a cost of from $1,500 to $15,000. These are not mere afternoon seminars. Just one of those certifications -- a Microsoft MCSE, for example -- is worth half a masters degree at at least one fully-accredited, mainstream university that I can name off the top of my head. How would you like to have to take the equivalent of half a masters degree's worth of courses every few years just to stay certified? Hmm?

So, while my pain may not be worse than yours, please don't trivialize mine just because you've misjudged your IT people after seeing them crawling around under desks and tables connecting computers while you glance at them over the top of whatever book you're reading at the time and sometimes think to yourself, "Ugh... what a terrible job that only a loser would take."

Now you're reducing and trivializing this discussion down to something it was never about -- another classic tactic of those with no point. I, for one, have never whined or complained to or about any end-user or group thereof whose computers and/or networks I have been entrusted to keep running -- even during break periods, in the middle of the night, or at other times when I, myself, was not also scheduled to work. No IT professional who's worth his/her salt ever would. Were I the MIS Manager, IT Director, or CIO over those allegedly-whining individuals I would have written them up without hesitation and told them they would get no third chance. If your story is true (and, sadly, I'm quite sure it probably is), then those IT personnel needed to be reprimanded.

But bad IT service has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Therefore, given what this discussion is about, I ask, rhetorically, "so, what's your point?"

Then the IT Director probably needs to be fired, because I agree with you that, on its face, is inexcusable. But, in the context of this discussion, I ask, again rhetorically, "so, what's your point?"

Outrageous! Egregious! Off with his/her cocky, little head!! I could not more completely agree with you that his/her attitude and action, on its face, was unconscionable; and s/he should, at minimum, have been written-up... or so would have been the case had s/he worked for me at your institution. Then again, your institution, no doubt, doesn't pay enough to have me working for it; and no one who has ever worked for me has ever been so stupid and arrogant toward an end-user, so I'm just imagining what I'd do. Nevertheless, given this context, comes the same rhetorical question, "so, what's your point?"

Every profession has its bottom-feeders -- even (and, as salary levels drop, perhaps especially) IT. I'm sure your area of specialization has them, too; and despite the impression left by your words herein to the contrary, I'd take you at your word that you are not one of them.

To cite the bad behavior of a given profession's riffraff as typical and representative of said profession's standards in a discussion about the compensation levels it may or may not deserve is, categorically, a cheap-shot debating tactic through which, gratefully, most rational observers in a place like this can easily see.

Are you saying that because I have an opinion and am able to strongly express it that I am, therefore, no longer worthy of compensation commensurate with my expertise and tenure? Does my willingness to dispense with decorum when dealing with self-interested, narrow-minded, knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers like you and Big Red rub you the wrong way? Sure would be nice to have a little chat with your wife or ex-wife. Sounds like you like your IT people the way I'll bet you like your women: Quiet and opinionless.

How dare you suggest that I would do it any other way. I've been at this for 30 years... er... okay, 28. I dare say that I'm as good at what I do as anyone alive. I can give you the names of even clients with whom I've had disagreements -- sometimes even disagreements that ultimately ended the consulting engagement -- and even they will tell you that one thing they could always count on with me was that I had their best interests at heart; that I truly understood the notion of agency and the concomitant fiduciary responsiblities; and that, moreover, I always put my clients' needs before my own. And my ex-wife will tell you that while she respected me for that personal high-bar that I set for myself in my professional life, the hours it took to honor that standard ultimately cost us our marriage. What diminished value would you like to put on that, you sanctimonious, those-who-can-do-and-those-who-can't-teach academic sonofa... [oop... take a breath, Gregg... easy, there, big fella'... he ain't worth it!]

I derive a great deal of comfort from the knowledge that your marginal propensity for making sweeping, irrational generalizations throughout your post; and then foolishly basing your ill-conceived arguments upon them, will ultimately lead, I'll wager, to your undoing long before my bitterness over three decades of dealing with the likes of you and Big Red, will ultimately lead to mine.

An institution gets what it pays for. If your institution pays IT personnel like it pays its academics, then it will surely be more likely to attract such as the aforementioned bottom-feeders. But they and their ilk have nothing whatsoever to do with me; or with the quality of my work; or with this discussion, generally.

As earlier-stated: If your intstitution's IT department is made-up of the sorts of low-paid bottom-feeders that are probably all it can attract, then I suspect you're completely correct. More's the pity.

 

Oh, well... so much for that notion, I guess. I think I may have jinxed myself.

 

Not everyone kowtows to their boss. The fact that you don't know this only supports the idea that you're in too deep. As to your bitterness, it's apparent. The fact that you don't taste it in your mouth only supports the idea that you're in too deep.
Best wishes,
Jack

 

Originally posted by William H. Walters

In the academic environment, long hours (60+ per week) are the norm, and "job training" is generally a graduate program that puts the student in lifelong debt.



I work in the field of higher education, and yes that is true that most dedicated professors and service professionals in that field tend to work long hours. Students want and need a lot of attention to help them achieve their goals, and most of us don't mind the extra hours being that we enjoy helping others, and our jobs. Attaining a properly accredited graduate program will always have more rewards than detriments, so I don't understand your "life long debt" comment. Most holders of legitimate advanced degrees are able to find satisfying and gainful employment, and the low interest, low monthly payment student loan is a minor problem in the whole scheme of things.

 

Cap,

I realize I'm getting on this thread late...however, I have been in the IT field for the last 9 years and feel like I can offer some advice. First, you want to get into networking which is good, because unlike programming/web design, I think networking jobs are a bit less vulnerable to being outsourced overseas. Second, while getting a degree is important, it is still very feasible to get an entry level IT job without one.

Where do you live? If you live in a small town, what is the closest major city? Go to monster.com and run searches on entry level IT jobs in your area such as help desk/desktop support. What are they asking for by way of requirements/certifications? This will give you an idea of what you need to shoot for. You currently have a job I presume...use the next few months to study and take some of the beginner certifications. Then, get your resume out there and get some interviews. In an entry level job, you are presenting yourself to an employer as someone who is a self-starter, capable of learning on your own, and willing to throw yourself into a new job. This can go a long way. If you are having difficulty landing a job or interview because of lack of experience, consider volunteering your IT skills. Various charity/church organizations will usually accept your help.

Lastly, do not give up. I realize you've heard alot about how difficult it is to break in to the IT field, competition is fierce, everyone is outsourcing, etc. It's true there are more people in the field and there are many who have signed up for the no experience/get yourself an MCSE for 10k who are also trying to get into the field. While it may be challenging to get your first job, I absolutely do not believe it is impossible or that you should give up on this career simply because of that.

On a final note regarding certification schools - do yourself a favor and self-study. If you get in this field, you are going to be studying all the time anyway. Employers rarely pay for training anymore and you do need to constantly update your skill set. With the huge amount of certification books at the bookstore, and virtual software such as VMware that will allow you to emulate a network, you will learn more through the self study process that you will being spoon fed test material at a cert school.

Good luck.

Nadine

 

This is great advice. You can self-study for the A+ and Network+ pretty easily.

 

DesElms,
You are in serious need of a career change maybe degreeinfo can help in that transition!
-buckwheat

 

Mr. DesElms,

Thanks for providing an amalgam of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, Gregg DesElms' Mine Comp, and Marx / Engels Communist Manifesto. This will save me a whole bunch of reading time. THANKS AGAIN!

 

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that I'm bitter.

I'm taking a path to changing my career that will take at least 5-10 years. The reason? Because of age discrimination in IT.

Look around you...do any of you see women in IT over 45? Probably don't know a single one.

You don't see that many men over 45 in IT, either.

There is a reason for that.

I would not advise anyone to embark on such a career knowing what I know, UNLESS that person is dead set on it and spends a lot of their free time working on IT projects. If you are not serious about this as a hobby, don't get into IT. The field will only disappoint you, especially if you are the bottom half of talent.

Setting up servers and networks, while requiring troubleshooting creativity, does not allow a person to build or create, in the general sense. Programming is much more stimulating, intellectually. That said, programming is not for everyone.

I have worked for large, medium and small companies. Never for the government (I did a government contract once and boy, were those people the most stagnant and lazy I've ever seen), never for non-profit. Some people find these areas more satisfying and stable. Maybe a think-tank like Argonne National Labs or something.

IT is fun. IT is interesting. IT does have downsides, like any other field.

I never had a problem getting or keeping a job in IT, so far. But I do see the writing on the wall.

Being the best no longer matters if you salary gets too high, because non-IT people get nervous about the overhead in IT and ask their MBAs for advice, instead of their IT professionals.

 

Nadine, thanks for that advice. And at $5 for a library card it's the bargain of a lifetime. If nothing else I'll get a better understanding of what I'm getting into. If it's what I really want to do.

 

Interesting thread. I have been in IT for several decades and am on the tail end of a career. While it has many ups and downs I think that the best advice is to find something that you can enjoy regardless of salary. For a degree I would not recommend a hard CS degree unless you plan on following it up with a masters that has some managerial or business approach. The bottom line, and this comment holds true even for us "lazy and stagnant" (where was the incompetent?) government workers, is that you want to maximize your potential to be flexible in light of unpredictable futures. I was fortunate enought to slip into wireless communications (terrestrial and space-based) and networks over twenty years ago and find myself in a stable growth position should I leave the federal government. However I also started with the box and built up from that point. I don't think there is a magic bullet to ensure success since much of that is on an individual's shoulders. I would recommend infrastructure, its hard to outsource physical cababilities, and wireless since it is growth for a number of years to come. I would also recommend the security skills to secure these networks. For a long term approach, management is a survivable avenue in my opinion. Somebody has to take care of the entity's interests when all else is outsourced.

I think that Nadine's advice is excellent with regard to volunteering. I volunteer and support a couple of non-profits and also help friends who are in academia. Even if you don't have the current skillsets another volunteer who does will most likely be willing to assist in some ad hoc training or advice. More importantly it is a method of networking that can prove invaluable.

Good luck on your decisions.

 

I still say IT is a lousy career with little or no personal satisfaction or reward. Yes I stayed because of the lucrative times but now I am on my way out. No longer interested in just money (a fault of my 20's I guess), I want personal satisfaction much more.

 

Did that a long time ago... er... well... sort of. I'm still deeply in it, generally... but pure IT is but a part of what my consulting firm now does. But that doesn't mean I don't still understand the issues... intimately. In my IT career, I've been at the Director or CIO level for many years; so it sometimes surprises people when I make such union-organizer-like arguments. But isn't that at least part of what separates lefties like me from those on the right: Steadfast refusal to whistle the conservative "I've got mine, now you go get yours tune" even after we've actually gotten ours?

That's it? That's the best you can do? I mean... really... that's it? A Hitler reference proffered more or less equally for the concomitant word-play and the stink you had hoped it was gonna' put on me before the legion here assembled? Geez... that's not even clever, Big Red. Typical of someone like you? Sure. Telling? Even more so. But clever? Not so much, I think.

Of course, why am I surprised. One of the oldest, tried-and-true, when-all-else-fails tactics of misguided conservatives-suddenly-gone-speechless is resorting to characterizing their liberal detractors as socialists; or insane, murdering fascists; or, in their minds, even worse: Old-school communists!

Oooooh. Ouch.

How telling it is, though, that you see likening me to Upton Sinclair as an insult. And how even more revealing it is that you see his 1906 work, The Jungle, which so exposed the then-filthy Chicago meat packing industry just after the turn of the last century that then-president Teddy Roosevelt -- a Republican, as I recall -- invited Sinclair to the White House; and which ultimately resulted in the "Pure Food and Drug Act" later that very year, as something on par with Mein Kampf or The Communist Manifesto.

The prosecution, I would say, rests.

• "Man is an evasive beast, given to cultivating strange notions about himself. He is humiliated by his simian ancestry, and tries to deny his animal nature, to persuade himself that he is not limited by its weaknesses nor concerned in its fate. And this impulse may be harmless, when it is genuine. But what are we to say when we see the formulas of heroic self-deception made use of by unheroic self-indulgence? What are we to say when we see asceticism preached to the poor by fat and comfortable retainers of the rich? What are we to say when we see idealism become hypocrisy, and the moral and spiritual heritage of mankind twisted to the knavish purposes of class-cruelty and greed? What I say is -- Bootstrap-lifting!"
  
  -- From Upton Sinclair's The Profits of Religion, published in 1918.

Perhaps not anymore, at least.

Well... Amen, I guess... except for the "just money" part, maybe. That was never my chief motivation.

Providing appropriate IT solutions to business (and, even better, to worthy non-profits), at least when done skillfully and well, and also artisitically, responsibly, holistically, creatively, cost-effectively, on-time, under-budget; and ultimately providing more utility, convenience, efficiency and positive impact on not only the bottom-line, but also on the qualify of corporate life, than anyone prior thereto had ever believed was possible -- and then, yes, of course, getting paid many thousands and thousands of dollars for it (except in the case of the non-profits) -- can be indescribably satisfying... and just about the most fun you can have with your clothes on. I still get gigs like that... though less and less as the likes of Big Red and Mr. Walters have, by their attitudes, if nothing else, helped to denude the IT profession of its manifold, but soon-to-be-former, pleasures.

 

Gregg,

Thanks for the "gift that keeps giving." Perhaps I will explain this comment to you someday.

 

Ohgod, no! Not the dreaded "I-know-something-you-don't-know" gambit!



You are older than five, right?

 

I must admit that was good!

 

Were we in a bar -- and assuming we hadn't been arrested yet -- I'd make you buy me a beer.

 

I might just buy you several. I will say this...you have made me think a bit differently although I won't go as far as to say you have "converted" me. I am actually very busy at work right now, but I may send you a longer email later. You would probably be a bit surprised regarding some of my background, philosophies, and interests.

 

Okay... but you won't mind if I insist that it goes straight from the bartender's hands into mine, rather than from him to you to me -- at least at first -- do you?

I'd love it. Some of my best friends are shaky or near-former conservatives who got the snot kicked out of their core beliefs at my hands. [Just ribbin' ya']

I can be emailed by clicking on the "Profile" button at the bottom of any of my posts, and then clicking on the "Click here to email DesElms" link on the resulting page. Unlike many around here, my email link on that page actually works! Odd that activating it doesn't create an "email" button at the bottom of posts, though. Maybe that's just in a later version of vBulletin... who knows.

Hey... look, everyone... Big Red and I have damned-near kissed and made up. I'm gettin' all choked-up, here.

Damn! There's no :brings_a_tear_to_the_eye: smiley on the "Post Reply" page!

Thought to self: "Okay... one down... one to go. C'mon, Mr. Walters... you can do it!"

 

Let's make it clear that the key words were "damn near" with reference to kissing. Also -- I have opened my mind but I am far from a "near-former conservative". That said, this has actually been fun.