Apostille

Is Apostille good for Degree authenticity? Is it really accepted by countries?

Read the foollowing and comment please

In accordance with the resolutions reached at The Hague Convention held on October 5th, 1961, diplomas, certificates and transcripts issued by universities in one country can be officially legalised in other countries if they are accompanied by a notarial certification.
The Apostille, which authenticates the signatures and stamps appearing on the document is becoming Increasingly popular. Countries around the world are adopting this validation procedure for its simplicity and worldwide acceptance.

www.apostille.co.uk/degrees_and_diplomas.html

 

"The Hague Convention" sounds so grandiose.

But it's worth looking at the specific Convention in question: CONVENTION ABOLISHING THE REQUIREMENT OF LEGALISATION FOR FOREIGN PUBLIC DOCUMENTS

In particular, note the following text:

• For the purposes of the present Convention, legalisation means only the formality by which the diplomatic or consular agents of the country in which the document has to be produced certify the authenticity of the signature, the capacity in which the person signing the document has acted and, where appropriate, the identity of the seal or stamp which it bears.

So this has no bearing on the academic value of the document.

 

I'm just adding my voice to oxpecker's. An apostille is comparable to a notary--a verification of the document. It in no way signifies the legitimacy of the issuing institution. It has nothing to do with the recognition of degree-granting schools or the degrees they issue. It has nothing to do with this subject at all. It is a ruse pulled by diploma mills to try to convince others that the degrees in question are legitimate, but it doesn't. It just verifies that the piece of paper is what it says it is. In a way, an apostille verifies that the fake degree is a real fake and not a fake fake.

Get it?

 

There is rarely any need to get an apostile for a degree, but if you wanted one, it shouldn't cost anywhere near $500.

You don't give your location. I don't know how much an apostille normally costs in the United Kingdom, but in the USA it should cost around $20. Call your university's registrar and ask about a certified copy of your diploma, notarized by a notary in the registrar's office. That will probably run around $10. When you get the copy from the university, mail it to the secretary of the state where the university is located. That will probaby run a few more dollars. Allow a little money for postage, and you're still around $20 all together. See
http://vermont-archives.org/notary/authentication.html
for details.

In many states any notary public could certify the copy of the diploma, rather than having to contact the university, but a wise recipient of the copy would insist that it be certified by the university and ignore any other copy. The wise recipient would also call the university on the phone to verify the degree.

The fact that the web site is apparently offering this service to residents of the USA, since the price is quoted on US dollars, and is charging about 25 times too much for the service, should tell you all you need to know about the reliability of the information on the web site.


At best, a diploma with an apostille is just an official copy of a diploma. It is no better than the diploma it is based on. If the diploma is from a degree mill, it is still just as worthless as it was before the apostille. I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advise. My impression is that under some conditions, courts and government agencies have serious restrictions on what kinds of documents they can accept; if they don't have the right paper trail, they can't even look at the document. So "legalizing" the document just means that the government can look at the document and decide if it is junk or not; the apostille does not turn junk into treasure.

 

In another copy of this thread on the Accredited vs State Approved section of the forums, "bullet" asked:

"What is the value behind it (the apostille not the degree)?"

I'm not a lawyer, but I'll post my impression so someone who knows more than I do can correct any misunderstanding. If you want to present a piece of paper to a court, or some other official government agencies, you can't just give them any old piece of paper you dug out of the bottom of a trash bin; you have to present some kind of evidence that the piece of paper is authentic. One way of making the paper acceptable is for it to have a signature and seal from an appropriate official, such as a notary public. If the official happens to be from another jurisdiction, the official in charge of papers from that jurisdiction, such as a secretary of state, can attach an apostille, which essentially says "Yah, there is a notary public in this state named John Smith, and yes, the signature on file for him resembles the signature on the attached document".

Once the document has made it through these hoops, then the government can begin to think about the content of the document; if the content of the document is a degree from a degree mill, it still does not establish that the degree holder has any academic knowledge.

 

Oregon ODA recommends Apostilles

The (unconstitutional) ODA in Oregon advise holders of Oregon degrees to get Apostilles if using a degree internationally or outside of Oregon.

http://www.sos.state.or.us/corporation/notary/howtoauth.htm

For those who are unfamiliar with the ODA, they are a state sponsored "busy body" dreamed up by a man called Alan Contreras. The whole operation will continue until it is challenged legally as unconstitutional, much like what happened in Florida a while back.

Hope that helps.

 

To have a diploma apostilled costs $3 in Colorado, and no charge in Ohio (vice versa?). I know it because I had to go through this ordeal last year. It is not easy to make registrar officials understand this procedure, and it is somehow lengthy. I think I could attach a real apostile if someone wants to take a look.

The apostile, in any case, only certifies that a document is genuine, and it doesn't make any statement on the validity of a degree, for instance. I think Ashton got it right.



Greetings

 

Re: Oregon ODA recommends Apostilles

In as much as the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization (http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/) of the the Oregon Student Assistance Commission (http://www.osac.state.or.us) is established by the Oregon State Legislature and is required by statute (http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_500/OAR_583/583_tofc.html, http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_500/OAR_583/583_030.html, http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_500/OAR_583/583_040.html, and http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_500/OAR_583/583_050.html) "to provide for the protection of the citizens of Oregon and their postsecondary schools by ensuring the quality of higher education and preserving the integrity of an academic degree as a public credential." Calling it "unconstitutional" is a bit of a stretch (at least they have a written consitution).

 

Under what circumstances would an apostille be REQUIRED? (I know they are mostly used to confer some sort of legitimacy on mill degrees.) When would a sealed transcript sent directly from a school not be adequate?

 

Re: Oregon ODA recommends Apostilles

If anyone is familiar with Fred Wilkinson, well, speak up. We'd like to know at least as much about him as we do about Alan Contreras. As if.

I've been critical of the ODA and its efforts, but I don't know why I would name-call to get my point across. Perhaps Fred knows more than I do, however.

 

In my case (and my wife's) I wanted to validate my (regionally accredited) American education here in Europe, and we were required by the Ministry to provide apostilled diplomas. My wife, an LSE graduate, had to attach an apostile to her British diploma as well even though it is a European Union degree. They couldn't care less, in spite of all those harmonization laws of the Union, blah blah. If we wanted to have our education validated here in Europe we had to get this apostille in all our papers (including the official transcripts, by the way). Period. It is not a lack of trust, it is simply a procedure they strictly follow


Regards

 

Certifying that educational documents are valid and correct is a requirement in many parts of the world for employment purposes.

From my experience, I found that for American qualifications signatories to the Hague Convention required no more than the apostile issued by the Secretary of State for the American state that the educational institute was licensed to operate in.

Countries that were not signatories required the apostile from the American State Government Secretary of State and from the American Federal Government Secretary of State.

 

Re: Oregon ODA recommends Apostilles

You forgot to mention that the State of Oregon operates a squadron of Black Helicopters.

G

 

no sense

With no insults intended towards anyone that reads this.

My view is, no one on the board can agree what the "apostille" is good for.
Probably this is because, this board if for discussing education and the ideals are burned into your way of thinking.

I reference this as an outsider looking in.

Look @ the posts on this subject and the same point keeps coming back.

"Degree Mills use this............................"

My friends, Degree Mills use mail, telephone, internet as well but it does not render these services "invalid", yes?

If whatever piece of paper the apostille is certifying then it is either genuine or not. The value of the apostille would be nothing if the person receiving the APOSTILLED (sp?) document cannot determine if it is "real" or "fake", or better still, if the person that is receiving the document is obligated to make that determination.

Just a view out of millions.

 

Re: no sense

Hi Bullet

You were doing great UNTIL this last statement. That is EXACTLY what an apostille means. The document may or may not be true, valid or forged, BUT the signiture is real. Think of it exactly like an international notary public seal.

As previously stated it is seldom needed, but it sure sounds neat and official on degree mill degrees and lends them a feeling authenticity.

 

signatures

Aha!

So the document is worthless.

O.k.

Good.

The signature.

Who cares about the real signature on a fake document?. O.k., don't answer this it does not matter.

Apostille is a dead paper weight.

 

It seems simple enough to me.

If sombody is presented with an actual physical diploma that's apostiled, then they have some evidence that it originated at the university whose name it bears.

But the apostile provides no evidence that the degree that the diploma announces is credible or that the originating university is academically sound.

The apostile process might have value in deterring counterfeit diplomas, but it doesn't substitute for effective academic quality assurance.

Creating confusion around that distinction is a popular degree mill tactic. It is implied that if a government supplies an apostile, then it is endorsing the quality of the degree. But in reality the apostile says nothing about the content of the document, testifying only to its provenance.

 

You're absolutely right. Bill. That's the use of the apostille which, by the way, it is afixed to all types of documents, not only University degrees.


Greetings

 

An apostille sure sounds like a "certificate of authenticity" from a Franklin Mint figurine (www.franklinmint.com). The trinket may have value ranging from worthless to priceless, but the certificate only attests to the origin of the trinket, not the value.

Based on what I've heard so far in this thread... if I take my diploma from "Rick's school of hard knocks", and attach an apostille to it, then I'll have an internationally recognized degree. Wow! Now all I have to figure out is whether to award myself a master's or doctorate.

Rick

 

Re: signatures

Sr. Dayson:

If it is attesting to the provenence and the provenance is BOGUS; then the apostille is doing nothing.