Is the Bible the Literal Word of God?

Re: I believe it is..

Nothing experiential is concocted.

Powerful testimony, Bill!

 

This is the problem that I have with religion. What evidence do we have that the Bible is inspired by GOD...outside of the testimony of those inspired by the Bible? Who ever said, "Yeah, I know the Bible is the true word of God, but I am Jewish anyway." Every follows the doctrine that makes most sense to them....that inspires them. Are the mechanics of inspiration better in one one religion than in others? Is the Christian's inspiration better than the Jew's, or the Hindu's, or the Muslim's, or the Budist's?

I think that as in Plato's theory of forms (the physical manifestation of something is less perfect than it's pure theoretical form), GOD is perfect. But in our attempt to physicalize GOD into something we can understand (most of us experience the universe physically) through religion, pure GOD becomes tainted. This is why there is so much turmoil in the name of GOD. We can all claim that it is because the other guy is wrong, but WOW that takes away from the time we have to experience this world (physically). The truth is truth, regardless of our acceptance of it.

 

What do you mean by an 'infallible God"? Surely in this day and age, when we have discovered that our planet is less than a speck in the oceans of the universe, why do we still have to believe in a 'god' to explain what science has already discovered for us?

To even talk about the Bible to be the inspired inerrant Word of God is a nonsense

 

What do you mean by an 'infallible God"? Surely in this day and age, when we have discovered that our planet is less than a speck in the oceans of the universe, why do we still have to believe in a 'god' to explain what science has already discovered for us?

To even talk about the Bible to be the inspired inerrant Word of God is a nonsense

 

You certainly have what would be called a 'strong testimony' and it is wonderful to know that you have found purpose, direction and meaning in your life.

However, a reading of William James's book 'The Varities of Religious Experience' helps those who have had religious experiences and conversion experiences to put their experience in perspective. A religious experience does not have to come from a force or 'spirir' outside of us, acting upon our mind or 'spirit' but can be explained in physical and psychological terms.

 

We have discovered that our earth is small vis-a-vis a vast universe. Ergo, talk of the Bible being the accurate and inspired word of God is nonsense. What???

Excuse me if my breath is not taken away by your "infallible" logic.

 

A religious experience does not have to come from a force or 'spirir' outside of us, acting upon our mind or 'spirit' but can be explained in physical and psychological terms. [/B][/QUOTE]

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I didn't think my post claimed it could not. My post expressed my own opinion about me personally. I'll trust my interpretation of my own daily experience over nearly 40 years if that's OK with everyone. Certainly others should follow the observations of James or whatever they choose to follow.

 

Nosborne~~

I think you remember we have had some exchanges on this forum. I just want to point out that anyone who says Christians don't care about Hebrew has superstitiously contrived a prejudice based on a narrow sample of the evangelical population.

Yes, I believe the text is the inspired word of God. That motivated me to get an MA in Semitic Languages at TEDS in Chicago. For my major exam, I had to be prepped on 80 chapters in in the Hebrew Bible; ready to translate, parse, do text criticism, etc.

The majority of students at the hardest hebrew program in the country (IMHO) are Christians, the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Michael V. Fox. Tough program. I know a plethora of graduates of such programs.

Also, I'm still looking forward to an answer for the other questions I posted. It seems to me that you brushed over most of my arguments presented in
this thread. Please see the bottom of the first and top of the second page. It would make more sense to me that you regard evangelicals as simplistic had you refuted my arguments from the text. It still doesn't appear that you are willing to do so, except to say that evangelicals simply "believe what they believe" regardless of the text and then turn around and say the "rabbis tell me so." This is the hypocrisy of preaching the authority of the text and practicing the hegemony of the interpretive community.

Nosborne, this is not personal. It is a serious charge that you say evangelicals don't care about the hebrew text. I seek to refute that because Paul would have done so as well. Also, please understand that I only want a consistent, respectful and nonprejudiced response, not to insult you.

Chris

 

Also,

Just a thought.

"literal" is the wrong word. "Literal" is one fuction of a certain kind of discourse. Can the Psalms be "literal?" No, because they are not intended to be understood that way. There are many kinds of discourse in the Scriptural texts.

Chris

 

There was no 'logical' connection meant by way of progress of an argument.

Just an observation that to think that a book that tells us that god made this earth in the space of 6 days, about 6 thoasand years ago (if you can believe Biblical 'scholars') and during this time created a fully rational and functioning man called Adam (oh, and not forgetting his helper, Eve, who was created only after Adam couldn't find a helper among all the animals!!) could even be considered to be accurate or infallible or even have its source from 'God" is utter nonsense.

We are insignificant specks in the seas of the universe and eternity. The only things that have significance are our lives here and now.

It is wonderful though, that as human beings, we have enquiring minds that seek the answers to our existence and each generation turn out great people who through painstaking research open our minds to these great mysteries.

Thank 'God' we are not left to the mercy of the mystics who would have our knowledge confined to the prehistory utterences of old men trying to capture the folklore of a group of desert dwellers.

 

Adam,

Just so you know up front, I have no hope of humbling you in this post because you seem to me basically, utterly closed to anyone else's point of view. You also seem to think you understand the Christian religion exhaustively, apparently.

Socrates searched all over to find someone who had wisdom and he couldn't find anyone but himself. This was, according to my understanding, because every man was convinced in his own mind that he was absolutely right. Such men are fools, Socrates said. Socrates knew that he "knew nothing."

I'm glad you are sure of yourself. Have you ever been to a funeral? When you stare death in the face, will you be as sure as you are right now? If you are right, I'm sure you are going to be fine. In that case, life is just a brief sputter of existence, in the infinite chasm of darkness. I certainly hope, for your sake, that you aren't wrong.

Your statement sounds like Carl Sagan's "the cosmos is all there is, was or ever will be..." It seems ironic to me that someone would claim that they know "all there is" when, unless you are superhuman, one cannot search all of reality and finally discover definitively that God does not exist. If you say that you have searched all of reality and know that God doesn't exist, you are truly God. Otherwise, you could never know that God doesn't exist. If you admit my argument is true, furthermore, the possibility of God will always threaten you until you confront it personally.

I think you also know that athiesm is a religion. Enough said there. I have a handful of humanistic friends, all close to me, and I appreciate them greatly. Do you have any close Christian friends who can help you understand where they are coming from?

Pascal said that religion without God only leads to despair and knowledge of our wretchedness. At the same time, religion without knowledge of our wretchedness only leads to pride. In Jesus Christ, we encounter both: God, and our wretchedness. Think about this one for me if you would please, Adam. I'm respectfully signing off for the evening.

Chris

 

Adam,

Just so you know up front, I have no hope of humbling you in this post because you seem to me basically, utterly closed to anyone else's point of view. You also seem to think you understand the Christian religion exhaustively, apparently.

Socrates searched all over to find someone who had wisdom and he couldn't find anyone but himself. This was, according to my understanding, because every man was convinced in his own mind that he was absolutely right. Such men are fools, Socrates said. Socrates knew that he "knew nothing."

I'm glad you are sure of yourself. Have you ever been to a funeral? When you stare death in the face, will you be as sure as you are right now? If you are right, I'm sure you are going to be fine. In that case, life is just a brief sputter of existence, in the infinite chasm of darkness. I certainly hope, for your sake, that you aren't wrong.

Your statement sounds like Carl Sagan's "the cosmos is all there is, was or ever will be..." It seems ironic to me that someone would claim that they know "all there is" when, unless you are superhuman, one cannot search all of reality and finally discover definitively that God does not exist. If you say that you have searched all of reality and know that God doesn't exist, you are truly God. Otherwise, you could never know that God doesn't exist. If you admit my argument is true, furthermore, the possibility of God will always threaten you until you confront it personally.

I think you also know that athiesm is a religion. Enough said there. I have a handful of humanistic friends, all close to me, and I appreciate them greatly. Do you have any close Christian friends who can help you understand where they are coming from?

Pascal said that religion without God only leads to despair and knowledge of our wretchedness. At the same time, religion without knowledge of our wretchedness only leads to pride. In Jesus Christ, we encounter both: God, and our wretchedness. Think about this one for me if you would please, Adam. I'm respectfully signing off for the evening.

Chris

 

Adam,

Just so you know up front, I have no hope of humbling you in this post because you seem to me basically, utterly closed to anyone else's point of view. You also seem to think you understand the Christian religion exhaustively, apparently.

Socrates searched all over to find someone who had wisdom and he couldn't find anyone but himself. This was, according to my understanding, because every man was convinced in his own mind that he was absolutely right. Such men are fools, Socrates said. Socrates knew that he "knew nothing."

I'm glad you are sure of yourself. Have you ever been to a funeral? When you stare death in the face, will you be as sure as you are right now? If you are right, I'm sure you are going to be fine. In that case, life is just a brief sputter of existence, in the infinite chasm of darkness. I certainly hope, for your sake, that you aren't wrong.

Your statement sounds like Carl Sagan's "the cosmos is all there is, was or ever will be..." It seems ironic to me that someone would claim that they know "all there is" when, unless you are superhuman, one cannot search all of reality and finally discover definitively that God does not exist. If you say that you have searched all of reality and know that God doesn't exist, you are truly God. Otherwise, you could never know that God doesn't exist. If you admit my argument is true, furthermore, the possibility of God will always threaten you until you confront it personally.

I think you also know that athiesm is a religion. Enough said there. I have a handful of humanistic friends, all close to me, and I appreciate them greatly. Do you have any close Christian friends who can help you understand where they are coming from?

Pascal said that religion without God only leads to despair and knowledge of our wretchedness. At the same time, religion without knowledge of our wretchedness only leads to pride. In Jesus Christ, we encounter both: God, and our wretchedness. Think about this one for me if you would please, Adam. I'm respectfully signing off for the evening.

Chris

 

Chris,

I appreciate your position. And by the way, when Socrates said he knew nothing, the proud old man was actually say that he knew everything and everyone else knew nothing!

You are quite right; belief in a gid stems from our lack of knowledge. We have 2 choices; to accept our fate and believe in a greater power who we hope, through proper pacification, will look after us, or to use our minds to search for the reason why.

When we can free ourselves from the first path and accept the second, then we have hope to live a life that is joyous in the knowledge that we are the captain of both our 'soul' and our destiny. There is no need to live in fear of the beyond, for if there is no eternal spirit, there is no beyond, and no consciousness that we ever lived. So if in death, there is no conscious state, there is no fear of death.

We are more focused on this life, we will then hopefully seek to live a fuller life and work harder for a more just society - for ourselves and our children, and our children's children...

 

adamsmith:

I think you've turned things on their head. Belief in God need not imply lack of knowledge. But to make the statement: "there is no God" stems from a complete lack of knowledge--not knowing one's relative place in the universe. If the universe is vast--one of your points--then you must recognize, like Christopher points out, that you can't possibly begin to know it all, as you're but a "speck" on a "speck". Carl Sagan was a very bright man, but he was absurdly tiny and his knowledge of the universe only the thinnest slice that he saw through a thick haze--it was foolish for him to say this is all there is; how can anyone profess to know that there's only matter?--it's silly. Like Christopher was saying, to be able to say there's no God, you'd essentially have to be God.

 

Adam,

You raise another question I have. If no higher purpose or ethic exists, no true teleology, then what value is there in the future, in "children" and in working so hard to build a just society?

Why not just sell crack, find some fast women, and then kill yourself?

Chris

 

Human beings are adaptable creatures. We all appreciate and value life. We don't need eternity or God breathing down our necks to make us live ethical, moral or appropriate lives. We live in a society and morals,ethics and values have changed and adapted according to the development and level of the society in which we live.

To say that there is no god makes us gods is nothing new. In fact, the 'devil' in the garden of eden said to Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of life, they would be as gods, knowing good and evil! He was right!

The garden of eden story raises some interesting insights into the Biblical concept of life. Firstly, the subservience of women in the Jewish and Christian religion arose from the creation story where Eve was created to be Adam's helper, and even then, she was only created after Adam couldn't find a suitable animal to be his helper. When Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbiden fruit, Adam was quick to tell God that ' the woman that you gave me' was the one who caused him to sin!

Secondly, sex was degraded at that point. Even the married couple, Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness in front of each other and sought clothing!

Thirdly, the curse of Adam was that he would have to work for the rest of his days; no more long holidays in the Garden of Eden. Productive work was regarded as a curse - an anti-capitalist's ethic if you ever found one. It is only by productive work that humankind progresses. Better to work and progress than plunder and pillage like the world did pre-capitalist days.

Fourthly, the choice that Adam and Eve faced were to remain ignorant, knowing the diffireence between good and evil - in other words to be able to make an intelligent and free choice and decide what they wanted. Not only is the Bible anti-work but anti-mind.

So much of the anti-humankind sentiments are found in the first 3 chapters of the Good Book. No wonder we all run around feeling guilty, and looking for an existence beyond this life

 

adamsmith:

Read the Song of Solomon if you want to check whether God intends for us to feel ashamed and bashful about sex.

 

That and Proverbs are about the best writings in the Bible!

But read the interpretations given to the book of Song of Solomon - Christ and His church. Oh, come on....!

I have read many commentaries and sat through many a sermon on this book and never ever heard a minister or theologian extoll the virtues of a women's breasts!

 

Adam,

On the "morality" thing: It looks to me that you live according to something you confess to be a lie--that some behaviors are "good" while others are "bad" when, in fact, those kind of judgments are vacuous from your perspective. Everything transcendent is lost in a cultural morass. While I admit, very readily, that culture alters and shapes, and even gives birth to many of our perceptions, the judgment that it determines them is, again, your playing God.

I'm glad that you have read the garden story. That you have interacted with it shows me that, at least, your philosophy is informed by some inter-religious reflection.

So the Bible is anti work, anti mind, anti woman, anti sex, and anti "this world." Such huge, crass overgeneralizations are hard to refute because I don't know where to begin. So I'm going to just say a few things and then sign off of this discussion permanently. The rest of us, including me, may parouse this thread afterwards, but I can't go on with the burden of always trying to show that the Bible isn't "anti-something" that someone accuses it to be. Especially if it is only backed up by church experiences which reinforce naive stereotypes.

Anti-work: The Bible doesn't forbid working, but recommends rest to counter balance it (Sabbath, etc.). The garden story does actually have Adam working in the garden before the fall. It is the effect that the "fall" (a necessary although inadequate metaphor) had on the process of labor. Labor is now governed by self-reliance and self-centeredness, which leaves it without purpose or goal (i.e., worship and Sabbath rest).

Anti-woman: I take this one more seriously. Of course, the woman is assigned to be his "helper" just like the Psalmist says "God is my helper." The first chapter shows us clearly, according to Barth's interpretation of Genesis 1, that the image is "male and female" showing us that the Trinitarian God is only completely imaged through the differences engendered in community. So only as "mald AND female" can God be properly imaged in terms of relational self-giving love. God is spirit (Jn. 4), and the book of Dtr. advises us to remember that when the Israelites looked to the top of the mountain that God appeared not in the form of "a man or a woman." So gender is something we share with animals, and the rest of the created order, not with God. That Adam blamed his wife, you say is an indictment on the woman assumes that the narrator agrees with Adam and is a facile reading. Adam's foolishness is shown in his blaming, hiding behind the created order (leaves, trees) and not accepting responsibility for his action. Also, the commentary you want on Song of Solomon is Tremper Longman's with the New International Commentary on the Old Testament. He details the sex parts extensively.

Anti-mind: I would quote the Shema "love the Lord your god with all your... mind." Doubtlessly you are aware that "knowledge" in Hebrew (referring to the knowledge of good and evil) has connotations of more than western positivism and abstract thought. To "know" a woman is to have sex with her. The knowledge in the garden is a knowledge that they gained through moral rebellion and self-reliance. It is a knowledge that sets itself up against God, like yours, instead of a knowledge that seeks to glorify God thankfully for the created order as it is investigated. This knowledge, the text points out, leads to exile. I think rational positivism is an unrealistic philosophy that also leads to isolation in relationships. Whenever concepts are priviledged over metaphors and the material world, the way of life we are left with isolates, excludes and snubs those with whom we disagree. I see a lot of this attitude in your overgeneralizations about Christians.

Anti-humankind: God said that the creation was "very good." Only if you swallow Feuerbach or Nietzsche, I think, will you consistently say that the garden story is "anti humankind." The statement made by the author, that it was "very good" is stated, to some degree, in hope of restoration to that state. What is good or not good for humankind, again, depends on what point of view you espouse and what narrative you tell about humanity and what went wrong.

Your narrative, Adam, is that we should use our rational faculties to overpower falsehood, the natural order, and superstition in order to bring in an age of peace, having equalized all peoples. The chief sin, as you see it, is probably falsehood, I would guess. That is why you seem so belittling of Christians. I suppose you see yourself as an architect of this peace, and a savior for all of us.

As much as that whole attitude saddens me, I think your judgment of Christianity being "false" is a lot more random and emotional, and less rational than you would like it to be. In fact, I think you probably would like to hide how emotionally driven your decisions are, especially how your personal history has effected your perceptions, and say that you are the exemplar of "rationality" for us. Personally, I don't have to hide the fact that I believe in God because I love Him. I know Him not only through the Bible, but through the experiences in community that have engendered my faith and practice of it. So I would say with Anselm that we have a "faith seeking understanding."

Finally, and even though this will probably disgust you I'll say it anyway, God is not breathing down my neck with anything but the breath of life by the power of His Holy Spirit.

Signing off respectfully, and with disappointment,

Chris