Situation at work

I posted this under "degree fraud or not" but probably should have started another thread rather than hijacking bo79's thread - sorry! I'd love opinions on the following:

I have an interesting situation at work. A co-worker of mine holds a position of chemical dependency counselor with appropriate education and certification, and has a legit BA in Human Services from a state univ. However, she's applying to become program mgr, which means she'd supervise (not clinical supervision, but program/administrative supervision) mental health therapists like myself who all hold legit masters degrees in counseling fields. I would have no problem with this at this point, and truly like/admire/respect her as a person and as a professional. However, when hearing that she was a candidate for the position, our current manager showed us her resume. No masters degree, but lists a PhD in Clinical Hypnotherapy from a "univ" who basically self-accredits (I'm sure you can guess which). She got it when this place had a different name - now they are known as something else.

It "came up" in our clinical supervision meetings (from us therapists) that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there exists no legit PhD in hypnotherapy. We are frequently and routinely audited (not only charts, but personnel files, etc.) by federal/state/regional orgs. Would this potentially be a problem? Or is this a non-issue as that PhD is certainly not required for either the CDP position or the prog. mgr position?

What are opinions about this scenario, ethical and otherwise? I would love to know, since it's happening!

~Michele

BSW - Univ. of Nebraska
MS - Capella Univ.
PhD Learner - Capella Univ.

 

Okay - her PhD was listed as from the Amer. Institute of Hypnotherapy, now the American Pacific University (incorporating American Institute of Hypnotherapy). I received a private message stating that the AIH was formerly a Cal-approved degree granting institution - before moving to Hawaii as APU, and therefore valid & legal (I know, I know). But not exactly answering my question about ethics, etc. Comments here in this forum rather than private email, please, so that people more informed than I am can evaluate responses . . . . I know the difference btw regionally accredited and Cal-state approved, but would really like opinions from the board. It appears to be more of a gray area than the other thread on "degree fraud or not."

P.S. - I have to admit that it kind of pisses me off that someone would proclaim a PhD in hypnotherapy, since I'm doing the REAL work myself in a regionally accredited PhD program - and it's a LOT of hard work, and no small accomplishment! BTW, I have only 2 more quarters to go before my comps, then dissertation!

~Michele

BSW - Univ. of NE
MS - Capella Univ.
PhD learner - Capella Univ.

 

There's a reason why said school moved to Hawaii, and that's presumably because the school failed to meet even the miserably lax standards of the California Approval system.

If your program currently enjoys a strong reputation, I think it would be a terrible idea to move someone into a supervisory or management role who has a fake or near-fake (i.e., less-than-wonderful) degree. The potential for someone to get upset and decide to expose the fact that this person has unwonderful credentials is too great, and could reflect poorly on all of the other, legitimately trained therapists and others in the organization.

I would highly recommend that influence be brought on to either discourage said person from applying, or, at the very least, to get agreement from her that she will never use nor mention said unwonderful degree.

 

Doesn't successful therapy require honesty?

 

My opinion- If she has the legit credentals for the job, what is the problem? You say the school where she earned a PhD is/was state approved when she earned it so that degree is also legit.

Would she need an RA PhD to perform this job? I am biased because I am a fan of CA approved schools because they do offer an alternative to RA schools.

Doesn't successful therapy require honesty?
What was dishonest?

 

Of course, you are correct when you say that there is no legitimate PhD program in hypnotherapy. I don't know anything about the school you referenced but I believe that you are entirely within your rights to point out to the person who is in the position of hiring this individual that this degree is phony. It's not clear to me if this would make a difference in their hiring decision but agencies like JCAHO attend to the credentials of staff persons and they may not like to see someone flying the flag of a degree mill. In short, I'd blow the whistle (although perhaps discretely).
In my eyes this is a great post. It brings the sometimes abstract arguments related to degree mills back to a very real reality.
Jack

 

I thought is was determined that is was a CA approved school when the degree was obtained. Are all CA approved degrees phony?

 

Well a management position doesn't mean so and so is the best therapist or best counselor or even degreed in the field they are managing. Management and the field people they manage tend to have very different skillsets. To me this person isn't qualified because they might lack a MPH or MPA versus a state approved Ph.D in Hypnotherapy. If said person is getting the position on the strength of the Ph.D. then because it is state approved, should be scrutinzed but shouldn't get the rubber stamp of "mill degree" per se although even if there was such a thing (PhD in Hypno) I don't see the leap from Phd to management anyhow.

 

No.

Are all California-approved schools that left the state because they could no longer qualify for California approval phony? It's quite likely.

I don't think this is the argument that you want to make. I also think that this is the big mistake that proponents of California-approved schools make:

"All California-approved schools are of good quality and I am willing to have my CA-approved school compared to all of the other CA-approved schools."

It's just not true. Are there some good ones? Yes. Are there some horrid ones? Yes. Are most* of the degree-granting California schools at an adequate level to compare with other degree-granting (RA or DETC) schools. My guess is no.



Tom Nixon


*Please not the use of the word, "most". I will leave it to wiser persons than me to determine which few schools are of adequate quality.

 

I agree, some schools are better than others.

 

This is stated in the context of a discussion regarding degrees/qualifications in the general field of Mental Health. Within this context, there is NO such thing as a degree, on any level, in Hypnotherapy. It doesn't matter if the school is approved, unapproved or disapproved. You can be trained in hypnotherapy and there are some good programs for this (and LOTS of bad ones) but there is no degree in hypnotherapy that is recognized by any legitimate organization having anything to do with mental health. That is what makes it phony. In a similar vein, there is no legitimate degree in Psychoanalysis. You can become a Psychoanalyst and there are many very fine programs around the country and the world that offer this training. However, these are not "degree programs." One does not earn a degree, at any level, by completing such programs. A credential? Certainly. A degree? No.
Jack

 

your eyes are getting heavy...

Ohmygawd, you mean one of the divisions of the The American Institute of Health Care Professionals' is Not To Be Trusted, namely "The American College of Hypnotherapy" which even features a "Code of Ethics?"

And what does this say about other entities watched over by AIHCP, such as the Central States Consortium of Colleges & Schools which accredits Breyer State and Canyon College? Could this be a devastating blow to these two umm... degree granting entities? And how could this have happened, unbeknownst to the administration of Breyer State (whose president is also the Executive Director of AIHCP) and the faculty of Canyon College, which includes the Executive Director of AIHCP in its roster?

I am shocked, I tell you, but also so sleepyyyyyyyyy....

G

 

I was looking at from the prospective of,"is the school legit" not "is there such a degree".

I get the point.

 

If I could stray a bit off topic...
This forms the core of my interest in IUGS as their founder and CEO (or whatever she calls herself) Norma Ross, claims a PhD in Psychoanalysis, a degree that does not exist, at least not according to any legitimate and reputable organization in the Mental Health field. Psychoanalysis is a field of study, it is a learned methodology, it is a mindset, it is a philosophy, but it is not a degree.
Jack

 

Jack wrote:

"You can be trained in hypnotherapy and there are some good programs for this (and LOTS of bad ones) but there is no degree in hypnotherapy that is recognized by any legitimate organization having anything to do with mental health. That is what makes it phony."

Thanks, Jack. This is what I was hoping to hear, I believe - clear and convincing. I don't want to discount the value of her hypnotherapy training as a "credential," but to proclaim (or to have a school proclaim) the training as a PhD DEGREE just rubs me the wrong way.

I do believe that should she get the position (and it looks like she might) I will gently suggest to HER supervisor that the woman remove this degree and reference to it from her resume and from her personnel file. I would truly hate for this to come out and cast a shadow of doubt on the good quality of our program.

We have both a substance abuse program and a mental health program, and all counselors in either program are appropriately credentialed, educated, and experienced. Should word get out in the community (or God forbid JCAHO accreditors or Medicaid auditors) that we have a so-called PhD in Clinical Hynotherapy in our program it will not likely made a difference that she is not performing the work of a mental health therapist (and is "just" the administrative program manager overseeing us from a department manager perspective, not as a clinical supervisor). I can see that this would cast a shadow over our program's reputation.

However, if she would simply assert her credential as a chemical dependency counselor who is also our program manager, there would be no "dark shadow" or skeletons in the closet. The CDP alone is a respected credential and sufficient to "manage" the department. I thank you for the great debate and perspectives. Jack's post answered my uneasiness - she likely has legitimate training as a hypnotherapist, but certainly does not have education as a mental health counselor and definitely not as a PhD level professional in anything. Chip's post addressed my fear that the program's reputation would be in jeopardy and stated the case very well - very important point.

~Michele

 

Michele – In a situation where there is a question of an ethical dilemma, my best advice is to do the following. First, review your discipline’s ethical principles for direction on how to proceed. In my case I’d review the APA code of ethics. Secondly, APA ethics – and I suspect this is so with most disciples – suggest you consult with a peer who is external to the situation. I use a friend who is professor in an APA approved doctoral program who spent a number of years on her state’s licensure board. Perhaps you could review this with your Capella ethics professor. If the position is being granted contingent on the chemical dependence qualifications this may well be a moot issue; annoying but moot nevertheless. Ethical dilemmas can be oh-so-sticky and take on all manner of unforeseen ramifications. One that crosses my mind has to do with whether her CV was open and public. If not, did the manager violate an ethical boundary by leaking privileged information and, secondarily, did the staff who read it commit an ethical breech by accessing privileged information? If I remember correctly, ethical dilemmas become even stickier when the issue goes across disciplines. Under the lemons to lemonade heading, perhaps you can get derive some benefit from the situation if you’re asked in your comps to discuss an ethical dilemma you encountered in your personal experience.

 

Michele – In a situation where there is a question of an ethical dilemma, my best advice is to do the following. First, review your discipline’s ethical principles for direction on how to proceed. In my case I’d review the APA code of ethics. Secondly, APA ethics – and I suspect this is so with most disciples – suggest you consult with a peer who is external to the situation. I use a friend who is professor in an APA approved doctoral program who spent a number of years on her state’s licensure board. Perhaps you could review this with your Capella ethics professor. If the position is being granted contingent on the chemical dependence qualifications this may well be a moot issue; annoying but moot nevertheless. Ethical dilemmas can be oh-so-sticky and take on all manner of unforeseen ramifications. One that crosses my mind has to do with whether her CV was open and public. If not, did the manager violate an ethical boundary by leaking privileged information and, secondarily, did the staff who read it commit an ethical breech by accessing privileged information? If I remember correctly, ethical dilemmas become even stickier when the issue goes across disciplines. Under the lemons to lemonade heading, perhaps you can get derive some benefit from the situation if you’re asked in your comps to discuss an ethical dilemma you encountered in your personal experience.

 

For David

Hello David,
VERY interesting post! Thanks. You bring up another perspective. My codes of ethics to "live by" are the ACA and the AMHCA. Also excellent suggestion about consulting with an uninvolved peer (although I'm sure I'd likely have to educate the person about things that we here on degreeinfo can discuss in our sleep). Also, coincidentally, I have scheduled an hour conversation with my Capella mentor in a couple of minutes - I will consult with him on this matter as well. Per our policy at work, all candidates' resumes are made public to the staff they might be supervising so we have preliminary input - so that part was ethical. The points that Jack Tracy and Chip brought up have, however, clearly put into words my original gut feeling and I doubt that will change - having thought it out. There will be a risk to our program's reputation, as well as our therapists' reputation, should someone in the community begin talking about the PhD in hynotherapy we have on staff. I have nothing at all against the really nice person, but will suggest that she not use the credential, remove references to it from her resume and her personnel file (actually I won't be suggesting to her, but to HER boss - whom I know quite well).

Thanks, David, for reminding me that I can always turn to my professional code of ethics for guidance!
~Michele

 

Dubious PhD

Michele, I don't know if your HR section is large or just does the minimum, but does the agency have job descriptions for all its positions ? If so, look at the job description for the Program Manager position to see what it requires in terms of education and experience. If the program manager position has been posted, what requirements are listed in the Announcement regarding education and experience.

A program manager and a clinical supervisor are generally different, at least in my experience. Program managers generally have degrees in business or public administration and oversee budgets, personnel etc., while clinical supervisors hold a masters or higher in professional fields. I wouldn't focus on her "doctorate" unless that is a requirement for the job, usually stated as "doctorate required" or "doctorate preferred".

Now if I was on the interview panel for this position, it would give me some interesting insight into this candidate. I would have a lot of questions for her concerning her academic achievements.

 

Re: Dubious PhD

Hello DL,

Do you think that if the community or accrediting/auditing agencies find out that our program mgr (or even a staff person) held a bogus PhD (that is not a recognizable or accepted degree field in mental health) that the program and other staff credentials might be in question? Do you think that the program and therapists' reputation could suffer should word get out that the mgr has a PhD in Hypnosis (there's no such thing in this field, regardless of "valid & legal" arguments)? I think that's more to the point of my concerns. As I mentioned, she's qualified for the job with her other credentials/experience, but what about the use of the PhD? Your opinion from this perspective? Again, I'll say that I like her, and feel she's qualified based on her CDP & BA & experience, and I respect her abilities. But I think that's separate from the issue of her proclaiming a PhD in Clinical Hypnotherapy and the damage that could do. I'm still not certain whether or not she even understands that her PhD is not accepted in the mental health field, and not regionally accredited. I'd sure hate to think she'd been taken advantage of, and that she believes she's done the work of a legit PhD . . . but I'd rather believe that than the alternative (which is she understands but prefers to enjoy the prestige and is counting on people not to know the difference). I sure am gaining a lot from this discussion - thank you everyone.

~Michele