Bush, Iraq, and Vietnam...

Re: Re: Re: Bush, Iraq, and Vietnam...

General Giap, the leader of the NVA, seemed to think then much as you do now. It was his firm belief that, once the VC and the NVA launched the Tet Offensive, the citizens of South Vietnam would take to the streets in droves to support the North. That didn't happen. He also believed that SVA soldiers would be pursuaded to turn their weapons on the Americans. That didn't happen either. In fact, South Vietnamese soldiers defended their positions valiently, and the Tet Offensive was put down. Meanwhile, at Khe Sahn, the estimated 20,000 NVA soldiers who had invaded the south to surround that American military camp were also defeated.

The fact remains that the neither McNamara nor Johnson had the guts to pull the trigger on the North. Johnson never gave the only concerted effort to target the North--the three-year air campaign called Rolling Thunder--a chance to succeed. He placed strict limitations on what was targeted. IT has been said Johnson boasted that the Air Force couldn't bomb an outhouse in the North without his OK. Were the action against the North allowed to escalate, the influx of weapons and soldiers from the South's "moral superior" could have been greatly reduced, or even halted.

Speaking of moral superiority. Have you ever heard of places such as Tay Loc and Hue? There are the locations of some of the worst atrocities in the war. They were committed by the VC and/or the NVA (is there really a difference?). It seems that the only Vietnamese who mattered to the North were the ones that didn't mind Mihn's brand of dictatorship. The others were executed, jailed, or fled to the West. It seems that Mihn isn't much of a unifier after all--unless you consider liquidating the opposition "unification".

The Vietnam war is a poor example of a simple insurgency. The North was actively involved in toppling the goverment of the South. While it's true that French colonialism took its toll on Vietnam, not everyone in Vietnam wanted to be unified under communism. That was Ho Chi Mihn's idea. I disagree with the domino theory, but I think that trying to defend South Vietnam was reason enough for itself.

 

Re: DO YOU SEE WHO WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE?

You can see the whole video here.

Don't watch it if you're easily upset. I'm really, really serious about that. It's one of the most graphic things I've ever seen.

 

Clearly...

Clearly these inhuman acts must be punished, and I'm probably going to offend my liberal allies here by saying that this is a war between the West and Islam, and should be treated as such. I'd go so far as to say the US should immediately call to account all Islamic nations, asking for declarations of loyalty, tribute (as in lower gas prices), and renouncement of evil - else we should not leave a fly alive in their homelands.

Certainly, the beheading of the American by the cowards in masks should not go unrevenged.

That being said, I still stick to my story of the mistakes we made in Vietnam, its basic characteristics as a nation/culture, and the fact that we need to do more homework before getting our noses into these type of messes. Same goes for Iraq.

I'm also not at all convinced that Bush and Rumsfeld are the best choices for the leadership of this nation at war - that honor goes to our next President, the decorated war hero (two tours of duty, count 'em TWO, in Vietnam serving his country while Bush hid out behind his daddy's coattails stateside) - John Kerry.

Those of you who think the Democractic party is incapable of exacting a horrible revenge for criminal acts of war do not recall WWI, II, or Vietnam. As for Ann Coulter claiming that Democrats are anti-US I have one phrase for her - but it is unprintable according to the terms of service here.

 

Two tours?

John Kerry did not even complete one tour. He only served 4 months of his one tour before he was eligible to leave after being awarded 3 Purple Hearts. That is not criticism of his service just a correction.

 

Re: Two tours?

He also missed a grand total of 3 days duty for his 3 Purple Hearts. Too bad he threw them over the fence at the White House.....oh, umm......never mind.

 

Oh Poor Tommy

Uh! I do not own a SUV

What the heck does this have to do with immigration?

Oh my, let me bow to you big boy!!
FYI, I own 3 Cannondale's A road, A mountain, A hybrid.
I bike 150's each year for Cancer and other charities.
I have a Johnny G which I use every day during the -13 degree Chicago winters.
But to me that is no big deal.
Sorry for your lack of emotional strength and self confidence.

Wow. My big gut.
Maybe the next time your dogma and karma channel you view the right person in your center of gravity.

Im proud of my "gut". Heck, Im over 40, 6'4" and have a 36 waist.
Now don't get to excited now, Im married

In closing, I served because I love my country, I served because I thought it was my duty as a citizen. I served so individuals like you have the liberty and freedom to be in love with my gut

Would it make you love me more if I told you I am an old die hard Raiders Fan?

Enjoy Tom, feel free to respond. I love debate. Keep in mind I cannot respond everyday since like us all we must work to pay our taxes

Well, Im off to load my bike onto my Honda so I can keep my gut sexy... haha har har

 

Carl

Though I am slightly, well, rather, well, just darn conservative, I actually agree with some of your statements.

Example above, As I stated previously, I am not a fan of either Bush or Kerry. In my opinion Bush is not a conservative. I have never seen a conservative spend money like he does.

Kerry, well, I still see him as a Kennedy puppet. I could be wrong, but his record is so, well, Liberal.

As far as his service. In my humble opinion. Kerry joined the Navy, he served in Nam, he served. Im sorry guys, but no matter his future desires, he still served. Thus I cannot lable him badly for that. There are mixed opinions in regard to Veterans out here about Kerry, but I will give him one thing, he is no Clinton and for that I will give him the benfit.

Enjoy

 

Carl,

Calling me an apologist for atrocity is an accusation that I do not take lightly. Your accusation is totally uncalled for and clearly shows your lack of class. If you want to resort to such name calling, e-mail me or private message me and you can make all the false accusations you please. We don't need such garbage on this board.

Cy

 

Pot calling the kettle black

Well Cy, neither did your posts referring to Kerry as a "criminal" or referring to him as sKerry demonstrate any amount of class. Therefore, you have finally run into a left-winger who can use the same tactics that you right-wingers seem to feel is your birthright.

(In any case, my statement is rhetorical in nature, and we may actually find that we would agree more than disagree in "real life". I'm sorry if I offended you personally in any way, but opinions that differ from yours, even if presented in a polemical fashion, are not automatically "garbage".)

What else does one call it, when one associates morally and philosophically with the likes of Rush Limbaugh who CLEARLY is an apologist for US perpetrated or inspired atrocities?

I welcome your intelligent responses - in other words, those that aren't just code words from the book of Rush/Coulter and their ilk.

- Carl

 

Dictators web link...

Here's a little web site that I'm sure will win me friends and admiration among the right-wing / Rush / Bush / Coulter camp that has established itself on this discussion board....

http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html

Take a look at America's past "friends" and tell me now if you can why we should believe anything that Bush and his cronies have to say about integrity since they carry on this fine American tradition of support for brutal "US friendly" regimes world-wide.

 

Can't have it both ways

Carl,

It is my understanding from past posts you are a supporter of Jimmy Carter. He was president during many of these people time in power. Is he also responsible for supporting dictators? Heck, you're blaming Bush and he wasn't even president during most of their time in power. If Kerry is president and he doesn't do something about a dictator is he now responsible? Being president does not necessarily allow one to go around willy nilly removing dictators. In your posts you bash Bush for invading Iraq and then for supporting dictators. Jut what, exactly, is your point? It is a common tendency among the layman politician to point to the past in condemnation of the current. With that theory Lincoln would have never been able to abolish slavery as his predecessors were responsible for it anyway. Churchill should never have defended Poland because Chamberlain's appeasement went a long way towards encouraging Hitler's aggression. Bush should be held responsible for what he did and not held accountable for past sins committed in some cases before he was even born. I would imagine you say he supports Saudi Arabia which I agree is by no means our friend. However, it has only been since Bush was in power they have made any effort to supress their domestic terrorists. When the Khobar towers were bombed during Clinton's term they wouldn't even share info on the investigation with the FBI or US government. What did Clinton do? Nothing, and nobody cared because it was just a bunch of GI's killed. Nobody got mad until it was a bunch of civilians in the WTC and they watched it on TV. Pathetic.

 

Re: Pot calling the kettle black

Carl,

There is a very large difference between engaging in political debate and name calling. Yes, I am very passionate about my political opinions. What I see in Kerry is nothing more than a political opportunist who has no real stance on anything other than "Bush is bad." However, resorting to calling me an apologist for atrocities is sinking to a new low. And yes, I believe your name calling is total garbage. We just don't need that here.

 

EVERY user, please read this thread NOW
Folks,

I have recently been more "out of the loop" in monitoring the DegreeInfo discussion board than I would have liked, and our other two moderators (Bill and Bruce) do a great job, but at the size DegreeInfo has grown to be, it's hard for the three of us to keep track of all the threads.

Today, I removed a thread that was nothing but personal attacks. There are many, many other threads on this board that have personal attacks within them.

This MUST stop.

I did not create this board for people to attack one another, make insulting remarks, question one another's character... yet some people on this board seem constitutionally incapable of not falling into that trap.

Others don't start things, but immediately start hurling insults as soon as someone insults them.

I think those of you that fit the above know who you are.

DegreeInfo was created as a "safe harbor" to get away from the mean-spirited posts (and noise) of alt.education.distance. We've tried to be very "hands off" as far as moderation goes, and we will, as long as I'm involved, continue to be tolerent of differing viewpoints.

But we will not tolerate the sort of continued mean-spirited comments that seem to be happening more and more frequently.

I don't want to do it, but if it comes to it, we will switch the board software so that no posts are available for view until reviewed by a moderator.

I also don't want to have to suspend any individual's posting privileges, but we have done so in the past for people that, after warning, wouldn't follow the rules... and if we have to start being more aggressive about doing so, we will. (Make no mistake... suspension of privileges will be for violating terms of service and flaming other users, not for expressing viewpoints that are in the minority.)

I don't want to take any of the above drastic steps, but I know that some people have reduced or stopped posting, because they are afraid of being flamed, and I cannot and will not tolerate that sort of atmosphere here.

I would ask each and every user of the board to use the "Report this post to a moderator" (found at the bottom right corner of each post) if they see a post that they think falls even slightly into the category of personal attacks. And I would ask that anyone that feels they are being attacked by any particular user or users to personally email me (chip at degreeinfo dot com) and give me the details (including the URL of the threads or posts) and I will look into it and take necessary action.

I'm a busy guy and don't spend a lot of time here most weeks, but DegreeInfo is also something that's very important to me (as well as Nate, Nathan, and Keith, my three business partners, Bruce and Bill, moderators extraordinare, and to a lot of other people) so I'm willing to step in and do what is necesary to reinforce the sort of friendly community-centered attitude that has always been at the center of DegreeInfo.

As always, if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts on how DegreeInfo can do what we do better, we're always open.

Thanks for your continued support.




---In respect to Chip's request to not respond to any mean-spirited comments, I will no longer respond to any of Carl's name calling.

Cy