I own an unaccredited school

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Charles Frye, Feb 12, 2004.

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  1. Charles Frye

    Charles Frye New Member

    Thanks for the responses

    Actually we use two online libraries and we are hiring a librarian who will mail books to students at the cost of postage. I know this is not much, but we have probably $300,000 worth of books in the area that we teach. We will get many more. The online library has substantial resources (One boast 70,000 books and 100,000 articles). If anyone has any other suggestions I will surely listen. I should mention that our students are really impressed with library services. We always seen positive comments on the Bulletin Boards in the homeroom of the classes.

    We issue professional courtesy letters on behalf of our law students who want to use a local law library.

    One thing that is nice about an online library is that you can type in one word, i.e., cardiomyopathy, and all the books and references that contain that word are displayed. You can't beat that with a local library. The problem is the million books you mention. That's what the RA looks for. BTW there are guidelines to schools to use when facing issues such as this.

    We probably will not put N/A in very many blanks. We essentially do everything a traditional university does but charge for parking. We will also be offering a residential component and we do that now in the form of praticum.

    This is an expensive business. You can't stay in it if you don't have resources.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Sincerely,

    Charles
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I have consistantly stated my belief that a Bar qualifying correspondence J.D. is a perfectly legitimate way to become a lawyer, not just in California, but with experience in a couple of dozen other states.

    I honestly do not believe that RA or DETC accreditation would much improve the utility of such a degree and I frankly don't see much point in pursuing it.

    What DOES matter very much indeed, is whether West Haven graduates routinely pass the Bar and become attorneys. Membership in a State Bar does a good deal to "rehabilitate" a non-ABA degree, not just in my eyes but in the eyes of a fair number of State Bar associations.

    In any event, there is no ABA degree that can be obtained for anything like the low cost of some D/L J.D. degrees, especially when you take opportunity cost into account.

    I wish West Haven every success.
     
  3. Charles Frye

    Charles Frye New Member

    Thanks for the words of encouragement

    Dear Norborne:

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. You are absolutely right about utility aspect of a JD from any school of law that can result in licensure as an attorney. Other than members of DegreeInfo, few people would ask where one went to medical school. law school. or nursing school. But we cannot be what we need to be unless we have RA.

    My M Ed is in Distance Education. I have had discussions with professors regarding RA approach to DL schools. It seems like I have read in some litature from RA that they have discussed an RA strictly for DL schools. I think that would be great because we they are measuring the chicken for a suit with a tape measure made for a duck. Mr. Ruhl mentioned the million book library and other expectations of RA. Mr. Dayson wrote that RA may not be "particularly friendly to DL institutions." That is why it would be good to have an RA for our corner of the industry

    Again thank you.

    Sincerely,

    Charles Frye
     
  4. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Charles:
    Welcome to degreeonfo.com and I assume that this is not the first time that you have visited this forum. It seems that you have been peering through messages posted on this forum for a while. On 1/26/04, I started a new thread that centered on the import of regional accreditation and professional accreditation respectively. I started the thread after visiting your school’s website. I have only three questions for you.

    1. In view of the fact that NLNAC accredits mostly (perhaps only) RA nursing programs, are you actively seeking regional accreditation and if so what are the chances that it will be granted? When do you think that initial candidacy will be granted?
    2. Have you contacted NLNAC for initial accreditation?
    3. How would you convince a prospective student that your outfit is not a degree mill?


    Ike Okonkwo, PhD
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2004
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Dennis posted this kind of comment once before. I provided a list of DL schools accredited by other regionals. It's not insubstantial. While it's true the NCA has been on the forefront of this, many free-standing DL schools have been accredited by the other regionals. While deciding whether or not other RA's have also been consistent in accrediting DL schools is subjective, there are plenty of examples to indicate it is so.

    Except SACS, of course. ;)
     
  6. seekinghelp

    seekinghelp New Member

    Mr. Frye - I am a registered nurse and have looked at your website. I can tell you that my hospital (University of Kentucky Medical Center) would not recognize a BSN from your school since it is not accredited by the NLN and not regionally accredited, they would not allow me to have BSN on my badge, nor pay me the BSN differential, nor pay for the degree from you. To me, it doesn't mean your program is not worthly of such. I have sent to your school for written material concerning your RN-BSN program to look at content of your nursing degree.

    Further up this thread, if I'm reading you correctly, you will take foreign trained nurses giving them credit for their education but not US diploma nurses. This makes no sense to me and further leads me to believe that higher education has their heads somewhere other than where it should be in this topic. I am not a diploma trained nurse. I can tell you though that from working with them, they are a much higher trained nurse than any ADN or BSN nurse in every arena of nursing and medical care. I think this is an abomination and one of the aspects of higher education that is just plain ridiculous. You are not personally to blame for this and I'm not trying to state that, just a practical observation from someone doing the job every day, not teaching the "theory" of the job (the two have little to do with each other out in the real world).

    I will always contend that teaching something and doing something are not the same. I many times believe that educators (and their internal systems and acreditation system)ruin education. To the teachers out there, I'm sorry. Since I've only seen nursing educators teaching theory and then my personally practicing the profession they teach, I can state my personal opinion (and please that is what it is, an opinon) that the education system is a little confused sometimes.

    I hope you get the designations you strive for. I hope you find a way to give the diploma nurses their due. They deserve it greatly and this has been a mindset of higher education that has been misplaced for a long while.
     
  7. Charles Frye

    Charles Frye New Member

    Thank you for your comments

    Dear Seeking Help:

    Actually I do not believe your employer could not keep someone from using the title BSN if they earned their degree from a state licensed school. Yet I am not sure if anyone would push it. I do believe they could keep from paying you differential. We did a survey and found that some hospitals, especially those alligned with educational institutions require the NLN accreditation.

    The Education Code normally provides the guidelines regarding using degree titles such as BSN, MSN, etc.

    We do not grant credit for life experience or accept credit earned in a non accredited program. Diploma programs are not accredited and since I mentioned the issue of foreign nurses getting credit, obviously I am in the same fish bowl as you. If we lower the dam, where does it stop? I did say in my post that I would discuss it with the accreditation committee. This may not be that big of a deal. I know other accredited schools do accept diploma trained nurses. We just do not.

    Thank you for your post.

    Sincerely,

    Charles
     
  8. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Charles Frye,

    You are pretty smooth. :D

    Did I read correctly that you are seeking regional accreditation?
     
  9. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I really think is an interest post because at least the person seems honest. It occurs to me that with or without RA accreditation the school should thrive to have an high standard of education. Of course accreditation is one way to validate such.

    One of the reason I confronted some people here about the subject of accreditation and life experience is that they seem to view these aspect of education as the end in itself. I think all of these is the means to an end of having a truely educated person.

    My standards are very high and probably even higher than what most people are even advocating here.

    In the end I think Charles is on the right track and I hope similar schools with the right intention can achieve the respect and encouragement.
     
  10. Charles Frye

    Charles Frye New Member

    Thank you for your comments

    Hello Morleyl:

    Thank you for your comments.

    Life experience credit is always something that can be discussed. I am most familiar with Registered Nurses completing a diploma program. Their education is validated by a state licensure examination. An RN is an RN whether she has a diploma, Associate Degree or Bachelor's Degree. Granted more stock is put into the one with a BSN, yet I believe most would agree that a diploma nurse has more nurse training than an Associate Degree Nurse. I based that on the heavy theory placed within a diploma program and it usually last three years. Yet without granting life experience credit they essentially lost those three years.

    But how much credit is it worth? To me it is worth 30 lower division credits in nursing toward a BSN. The student would still need 90 credits for the BSN. We do not give the diploma nurse any credit at this time. We do not have a provision for that. We may at some point, but not now. We could, I suppose, let them test out for credit but we do not even do that.

    But if we are going to grant credit for a diploma RN, why not an insurance agent, real estate agent, a police office in a department ran school, etc?

    Morleyl wrote: "The reason I confronted some people here about the subject of accreditation and life experience is that they seem to view these aspect of education as the end in itself. I think all of these is the means to an end of having a truely educated person."

    I think it would be a lot better for all concern if there was a standard. Like if we want to give credit for military training there is a book that we can look to for specific guidance. If there was a civilian counter part, it could work as equally well. That way we would get out of the business of guessing what something is worth. I for one like to give credit where credit is due. I just like standards. I know how important it was to me and feel fortunate that there was a pathway available to transfer credits.

    Anyway that's my thoughts on it.

    Sincerely,

    Charles M. Frye
     
  11. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Charles:

    Thanks, I would not say I am definitely advocating for life experience credit but more for a mechanism that can accelerate the means to acquire credit based on the knowledge. This could be using the means of exams, papers or oral interviews.

    Many schools already offer this means to gain credit and they are accredited.

    The good ones I see are TESC and WGU. In respect to standard, I support the view of looking at the specific field and determine what competencies are required to function in that field. The other issue is to determine what is vocational or academic in deciding the overall approach.

    Two students can get A in a subject but they may not have the same level of competence in the area. There has to be a baseline that can be used to validate this knowledge to give credits.

    All I am saying is that someone should not need to waste time in a class on something they already know. But they need to prove they know in some ways.
     
  12. PETEUSA1

    PETEUSA1 New Member

    I wonder what happened to this guy ....anyone know?
     
  13. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    The school website is up and running. Charles Frye is described as being the CEO of the university. I guess he's just been busy.
    Jack
     
  14. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I never chimed-in back when this thread was current, but I must say that, at the time, I appreciated his candor.

    In my opinion, the fact that the California Bar accepts his J.D. as requisite to sitting for the bar exam completely eliminates all questions about his school's creditiblity, notwithstanding its unaccredited status.

    That said, I found some (and I emphasize the word "some," and that it was only that) of his statements and explanations to be on the very cusp of being suspect on some levels. Even his web site strikes me as being just not as professional in appearance, behavior or content as we would expect a truly legitimate operation's web site to be. So I can understand why some might wonder if his entity is legit.

    But, obviously, CalBar says it is. So it is -- at least insofar as his JD goes. I'm guessing his other degrees are legit, too -- at least as legit as an unaccredited institution's degrees could ever be.

    I was concerned that he knew so little about DETC, and that his opinion of it was so low. That said, I was impressed that he was willing to re-think his whole DETC position and to investigate getting his JD accredited by it, like Concord and Taft.

    And his general attitude that bygod he's gonna' get regionally-accredited, come hell or high water... gotta' like that. Seriously.

    All in all, I much enjoyed reading this thread... and pseudo-meeting Dr. Frye, generally. I wish he'd return here and give us an update. He probably has more friends -- or at least more empathetics -- here than he realizes.
     
  15. russ

    russ New Member

    Hi Charles,

    I welcome a brave person who is willing to acknowledge up front about a school he owns that is unaccredited to a group like this. It would not be surprising that the person you mention that is harassing you about your accreditation is from this site. Some of these people are fanatical about anything that is unaccredited.

    I agree with Nosborne that, at least in regard to your law school, that accreditation will not add much value at your size. It seems that you need to get beyond one student passing the bar to ever aspire to be an ABA accredited law school with students around the country.

    I disagree with your comment about DETC however. Only if you buy into the consensus here that RA accreditation is the "cadillac" of accreditation would you feel that DETC accreditation is of less worth than regional. In my humble opinion, DETC has less of an agenda than the regionals and is therefore a more open and fair system. Plus, it is national vs. the different regionals with their different requirements.

    If there is one federal law that I would like to see about accreditation in higher education it would be to force all CHEA recognized accrediting bodies to accept all "like" credits from other accrediting bodies. We may be able to see that if it becomes a requirement for institutions which want access to federal dollars. At least then we might have some consistency in this messy business.

    Good luck in your business!
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: I own an unaccredited school

    Several of us have had experience with start-up schools. I interned with one (Greenwich) and taught classes at another (VIU). I would expect any school I was involved with be on a clear track towards accreditation. I felt differently in 1989, still believing alternatives were necessary, and that accreditation would not become available anytime soon. I finished my internship at Greenwich long before that was a question to be answered. I taught at VIU for a couple of years, but became disappointed at their lack of progress becoming financially viable for accreditation.

    The point is, while it might be too soon to criticize a start-up school for its lack of accreditation, there comes a time when either (a) accreditation happens or (b) it ain't gonna happen.
     
  17. beachhoppr

    beachhoppr New Member

    At one point I had enrolled in West Haven Univeristy (years before the original post). I had many conversations with Dr. Frye, personally, as he oversaw much of my online education (insomuchas an advisor perhaps?) Anyways, I eventually withdrew for personal reasons and went on to other things. Point is, he was just as open and honest when I knew him as he was in the postings. I believed then, as I do now, that he is sincere in his endeavors. My 2 cents.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2005
  18. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    West Haven and Baby Bar

    Technically, a West Haven JD does not automatically qualify the recipient for the California General Bar Exam. Students from unaccredited schools and correspondence schools, or those with law office experience, must also pass the California First-Year Law Student's Examination (the "Baby Bar"). In practice, many non-traditional students are "weeded out" by this step; the pass rates for first-timers are typically in the 30-45% range.

    I looked up West Haven's numbers for 2004 at the California Bar site. According to the Bar, a total of four West Haven students took the Baby Bar for the first time in 2004. Two passed, so the first-time pass rate was 50% (respectable, but obviously the numbers are small). One West Haven student re-took the Baby Bar and failed.

    Students at ABA- or Calbar-accredited schools are normally exempt from the Baby Bar, although a small percentage that are perceived as academically weak are required to take it. This might include students that have previously flunked out and reenrolled, or students lacking undergraduate degrees.

    There are three potential sources of attrition for law students: (1) failure to complete the academic program, (2) failure to pass the Baby Bar, and (3) failure to pass the General Bar. It would be interesting to compare a newly-enrolled law student's overall chances for success, based on all three factors. It probably varies by as much as an order of magnitude, from >75% at the better ABA-accredited schools, to <10% at some unaccredited schools.
     
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am very much a supporter of the California approach to law training including unaccredited and correspondence schools. Nevertheless, I think Cal Dog's argument is fundamentally correct.

    The California Bar actually investigates and accredits CalBar schools and acceptes the rigourous ABA accreditation process as equivalent to its own.

    But the Bar treats correspondence and unaccredited schools as being equivalent to training in a Judge's chambers or law office.
     
  20. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Unaccredited law schools again

    I am not inherently opposed to the California system. There is an important difference between an unaccredited California law degree and other types of unaccredited degrees. The law degree, by itself, has relatively little professional value -- its primary value is that it allows the recipient to qualify for the Bar exam. The Bar exam serves as an independent, third-party evaluation of the knowledge gained in school; in effect, it represents a form of degree accreditation. An "unaccredited" law degree effectively gains accreditation when (and if) the recipient passes the Bar.

    Nonetheless, I'm not convinced that all of the unaccredited law schools in California are really serving the public interest. As a possible example, consider the unaccredited American College of Law in Anaheim. According to Calbar statistics, a total of 69 first-timers from this school took the General Bar exam between 2001 and 2004. One passed, and 68 failed, for a total first-time pass rate of 1.4%.

    You might infer that there are a lot of repeat exam takers from this school. There were, in fact, 439 repeat exams taken by ACL grads between 2001 and 2004, of which 26 (or about 5.9%) were successful.

    The Calbar numbers suggest that either (a) ACL routinely accepts students who have no realistic chance of passing the Bar exam, or else (b) ACL does not do a good job of preparing students for this exam. In either case, is ACL really providing a benefit to these students? Note that the current cost of an ACL degree (including tuition, fees, books, etc.) is estimated at $34,810.

    Note also that the General Bar exam is only one source of law student attrition. It is safe to assume that many other ACL students drop out, or fail to pass the Baby Bar, and thus never even reach the General Bar exam. The overall success rate for ACL students, from initial enrollment to passing the General Bar exam, is unknown, but is likely to be very low. Maybe unaccredited law schools should be required to disclose this number to potential students.
     

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