Also-Rans?

I read Walter as intending to describe prevalent attitudes and not necessarily his own.

 

Again, where's the empirical data that shows that a DL institution was not the first choice for "1st class students". The comment is without foundation and further, does not distinguish between Bachelors, or graduate degrees. In my opinon the proliferation of DL offerings and executive programs bears out that the preference may be otherwise. Additionally, what defines a 1st class student? Lastly, "prevalent attitudes", whose?, if not his own?

 

Sheesh - people are getting awfully worked up over this.

I can't speak for Walter but he did begin with this: "Forgive the slightly inflammatory nature of this thread, but I invite comments on my perspective on DL in the "real world" of the business jungle:" Sounds to me that his "perspective" is his experience.

 

and his "experience" is documented where?

 

Dunno. Wouldn't know how to document my experiences either.

 

I think the problem with saying something, a bit off colored given this is a DL forum, that is not backed up with data, makes it more of a jab than anything worth while to discuss. This is the first things I realized through traning (like six sigma) and graduate school ....... Look at the data, not opinions, and it will lead you to a non-subjective answer, not just rumors or mis-statements.

 

While Walter may have expressed something that generally reflects the current realities of the business world, and perhaps other worlds as well, he has also expressed something else. He has expressed a value system in which "real tickets to play," being on "the A team," and being in "the real action" are seen as being more important and clearly more valuable than other alternatives. While this is obviously a well advertised belief system, it is hardly the only one available. Please keep in mind that the CEO of some huge corporation may make a lot more money than me, and he may get his ego stroked all day by suck-up underlings, but he also works a million hours a week, spends half his time looking over his shoulder to see who's going to try to stab him in the back, has more enemies than friends, never sees his kids, etc., etc.. If that's what Walter values then AFAIC he can have it. BTW, I don't think he's avoiding the thread, he's just a "high flyer," and probably too busy to check in.

Jack

 

maybe gathering data to substantiate his position?

 

If I was a betting woman.......

 

LOL...

I always get a kick out of those few who post here who think that success is going to a school that might land you a job with a six figure income when you graduate and failure is anything else. Very good examples of analytical thinking. Thanks but no thanks.

Tony

 

I used to have an old 1980's Arco college handbook. One of its features was naming some prominent alums from some (not all) of the schools it described. I threw the book out long ago, but found an old notebook containing some names. Here's a few that at some point attended USNews 4'th tier schools:

Old Dominion U.- Miles Godwin, Governor, State of Virginia

Old Dominion U.- L. Glenn Perry, Chief Accountant, Enforcement Division, SEC

Old Dominion U.- William Wiley, State Treasurer, State of Virginia

U. Montana- Harold Urey, chemist (Nobel Prize)

U. Montana- J. Carroll O'Connor, actor ("Archie Bunker")

Kent State U.- Arsenio Hall, entertainer

Kent State U.- John Kapioltas, CEO, Sheraton Worldwide

Kent State U.- Julia Walsh, President, American Stock Exchange

U. Louisville- Christopher Dodd, US Senator

SIU Carbondale- Donald McHenry, US Ambassador to the United Nations

SIU Carbondale- Kenneth Pontikes, Chairman and President, Comdisco

SIU Carbondale- Walter Rodgers, ABC News

SIU Carbondale- Robert Lewis Taylor, author (Pulitzer Prize)

SIU Carbondale- James Belushi, actor

U. Mass. Boston- Joseph P. Kennedy III, US Congressman

U. Houston- Rod Canion, Founder, Compaq Computers

U. Houston- Kathy Whitmire, mayor, Houston

U. Houston- Tom Jarriel, ABC News

U. So. Dakota- Tom Brokaw, NBC News anchor

South Dakota State U.- George Hamm, President, U. Texas

South Dakota State U.- Alvin Schock, President, Nordica International

South Dakota State U.- Theodore Schultz, economist (Nobel Prize)

U. Hartford- Dionne Warwick, singer

Cen. Michigan U.- Dick Enborg, NBC sportscaster

Oakland U.- Ronna Romney, Chairwoman, National Republican Party

U. Northern Colorado- Nick Nolte, actor

U. Northern Colorado- James Michener, author

Louisiana Tech. U.- James Lee, CEO, Gulf Oil

Louisiana Tech. U.- John Palmer, Dean, Yale U.

Louisiana Tech. U.- Lawson Swenigen, CEO, Commercial Union Insurance

Wichita State U.- Barbara Uehling, Chancellor, UC Santa Barbara

Wichita State U.- Frank and Daniel Carney, Founders, Pizza Hut

Wichita State U.- Bill Parcells, football coach

No. Illinois U.- Gary Watson, President, Gannett Community Newspaper Group

No. Illinois U.- Richard Henderson, President, US Sprint

No. Illinois U.- Dennis Hastert, US Congressman

Florida Atlantic U.- Dan Mica, US Congressman

Florida Atlantic U.- Robert Maxson, President, U. Nevada Las Vegas

Florida Atlantic U.- Robert Criswell, President, Amoco

Middle Tenn. State U.- James McGill Buchanan, economist (Nobel Prize)

Middle Tenn. State U.- Albert Gore Sr., US Senator

Texas A&M Kingsville- William Stevens, President, Exxon

E. Tenn. State U.- Oliver Revell, Exec. Asst. Director of Investigations, FBI

E. Tenn. State U.- Felix Lowe, Director, Smithsonian Institution Press

Jackson State U.- Joseph Jackson, President, National Baptist Convention

Ft. Hays State U.- Mike Hayden, Governor, State of Kansas

Buffalo State College- James Young, Chancellor, U. Arkansas Little Rock

CSU Dominguez Hills- Larry Lee, CEO and Chairman, Western Airlines

That's enough to suggest that it probably isn't an inevitable kiss of death to attend a less prestigious school.

 

Dead horse.

 

"If, at the Edinburgh Business School (where Prof. Kennedy teaches), they don't talk about the best way to make money, what do they talk about?"

There are many ways to make money. Playing a game that assumes you chose your parents correctly, assumes you went to good schools, assumes you went to one of four top universities and at that point you tell them how to be a 'succcess' does not strike me to be useful advice - given that anybody for whom the above assumptions were true would not need to ask you such a damn fool question, unless they were testing your attention to the connection between assumptions and outcomes.

In economics we teach that you can maximise an outcome given the constraints, or minimise the constraints for a given outcome. You cannot maximise an outcome and minimise the constraints at the same time.

So the question that should be posed, and what we teach at EBS (in the context of this thread), is how to make the best choices given your constraints, which include all the variations in the above assumptions that apply to you: your choice of parents, your parent's choice of schools, your circumstances when you might otherwise have been at university (any university), what adult experiences you have had, your abilities, your commitment to multi-tasking, your determination to focus on learning, your monetary options (given your own family's constraints on your household income), your location, the location of nearby tutorial resources, your freedom to mix work-study activities, and your access to whatever is available that optimises your intended outcome given these and any other constraints.

Achieving your outcome under these circumstances, in my view makes you a first class achiever, perhaps displaying qualities at least as good as the achiever who met the blessed assumotions that enabled them to do the 'easy' way.

Er, Decimon what else should we be teaching? How to be Millionaire in 28 days? (First invent time travel and start over!)

 

Wrong assumptions yield wrong outcomes, Professor. I wrote nothing of you, EBS or personal happenstance.

Please minimize, if not minimise, my constraints.

 

Also-Rans? continued

I can't post to the the "Also-Rans?" thread. Continuing...

Prof. Kennedy writes:

> Playing a game that assumes you chose your parents
> correctly, assumes you went to good schools [...] does
> not strike me to be useful advice

Prof. Kennedy, everything in your latest post is sensible (except that when you thought you were quoting Decimon, you were actually quoting me).

Walter was not giving advice to an individual. He was talking about how to "break the model": break the perception of distance learning as being lower-tier. He suggested that when one DL school became better than any brick-and-mortar school (perhaps just in a single field), this might happen. So perhaps appropriate advice derived from his post might be directed at DL schools: that they should form a consortium to found one high-profile DL school, which in turn would enhance their prestige?

 

Gee, I posted an innocent little view of how the world works! I'm surprised at the number and variety of response it elicted.

Let me give a couple of comments on the comments, but first a brief re-iteration of the point I was trying to make:

Those that pop into the business world out of the good full-time schools are recognised as better, and may indeed be so (in some way), but those that arrive and exist in the busines world by other means (i.e. DL) are more likely to be perceived to be 2nd tier. This perception is strong enough to become self-fullfilling, in terms of reward allocation systems.

This is not to say that DL is a bad thing, or that DL people don't do more with their lives than others, or that the "winner takes the most" system is healthy or even pervasive. Resonses by individuals using themselves as an example is almost as poor research as mine! Its also not to say that this view of the world represents my views - I simply think it refelects the views of enough senior business people to be a form of reality. I think a few posters acknowledged that.

As for myself, sorry Fed, I've never done any real research, let alone on this topic. Neither have I documented my experiences, just had them. I don't think I'm a snob or even a wannabe, Professor, but if it makes you happy, think it gladly! Since3/4 of my studies have been DL and I'm not A-team, at best my opinion reflects my reality, but I'm ok with that. I'd like to think I'm a fairly neutral observer of attitudes, but given the personal nature of the responses to this little observation I'll keep my observations to myself in future!

 

Walter - I think I disagree with your premise here. In teaching part-time DL students for quite a few years - I've seen all different kinds of students. Some are very bright and could easily suceed in top schools - but they need DL for personal or economic reasons. I've also seen DL students (usually grads of weak undergrad programs) that don't belong in graduate school any where.

As for the quality of programs - my general observation is that very few DL programs have strong academic roots (excusing Duke, Indiana and a few others). The vast majority are middle tier by design. The quality of their faculty (all too often low paid adjuncts), rigor of their curriculum (typically focused on quick graduation) and admissions standards (typically none) guarantee mediocre results. The thrust of most DL programs is "access", not "high quality".

That's my 2 cents...

Regards - Andy

 

It is my belief that the first degree is important for the first job. I presently work with a group of ivy league educated individuals, who were able to start at our employer right out of college. I myself coming from a state university had to prove myself elsewhere, and then get hired. We earn roughly the same money and have roughly the same prestige.

As for me, My work record has been more important than the degree. I would however, have no opportunity without the first degree.

Amen sister, education will get you so far and then it is a matter of how you play the game. Thomas Edison was propelled by the genious of Tesla. Why do we remember Edison and not Tesla? Edison was good at the politics. Bill Gates new about power and Steve Jobs was the great designer. Politics...

 

Many aspects of this thread are illuminating, but there is no "right" answer. Many firms will prefer the "no constraints" attitude of people who have the ideal comination of the brains, attitude and "parents" - parents who could afford to provide their offspring with elite education. Other employers will appreciate staff who have minimised their constraints by way of DL and brought other qualities to the business.

I think DL will become much more accepted over time, at the graduate degree level. Universities need to partner will employers much more, to ensure that the individual doesn't just get a degree, but also adds significant value to the firm based on what they've learnt. Lots of DL students neglect their work while they are studying.

 

Sincere apologies Decimon. My carelessness. There is little worse in debate than to be acuused of saying something you didn't.

Mark Israel. You asked a question about what I teach and I answered it. You appear to have switched the question from what we teach a class to what applies to an individual.

Walter, as I suspected, was in one of those discussions started off in company usually having a beer, in which an opinionated generalisation is made - 'all saints are sinners'; 'if you ain't in the A-team forget it'; 'don't go to university, you are from the wrong background' and so on - because the speaker has concluded thus from things that have happened to him/her ot he/she is depressed.

Normally, I ease away to another table but, as this one was about DL and it affects the feelings of potential or struggling DLers, the last thing they need is someone of unknown authority pouring cold water on their efforts. That these notions came from a (struggling?) DLer is all the more sad.

Walter, the main strength of snobbery is the deference shown to them by those not of their ilk. Time to get off your knees and get going.