Trump 2024

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Charles Fout, Nov 27, 2022.

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  1. LevelUP

    LevelUP Active Member

    The problem is how exactly do you quantify or qualify when someone or a group of people transform into fascists?
     
  2. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    The problem is correcting the course before the loss of democracy and the gas chambers, is it not? Here is one respected intellectual sounding the alarm (I like Snyder as he's an expert on Ukraine):
    Timothy Snyder Fears Democracy May Not Survive Another Trump Campaign (businessinsider.com)

    As for the tools to do that? Eco's 14 traits is one; there are others. Also, it takes one to see one. Leading American Fascists endorsed Trump from the get-go. Nick Fuentes, the guy who just had dinner with Trump, is a Fascist. Another data point: russia is at this point a full-on Fascist society, down to poisoning political dissidents, a new symbol affectionally called "semi-Swastika", and attempting an actual real world genocide on neighbors. Weird GOP russia sympathies are apparent. Tucker Carlson resembles a russian state TV propagandist so much he IS one of them for all intents and purposes - and he is a paid celebrity who would not say what he says out loud if there was no demand for it from his base. Trump-adjacent "Sedition Caucus" congresscreatures like MTG just happen to also be pro-Russia. When do we have enough data points to, you know, do something about it?
     
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  3. LevelUP

    LevelUP Active Member

    With the current state of hyperpolarization, it appears as if we will get gridlock or some sort of fascism by either by the right, the left, or both.

    Here's an interesting article from a Yale philosopher as well.
    https://www.vox.com/2018/9/19/17847110/how-fascism-works-donald-trump-jason-stanley

    "We might disagree on a number of things but we agree that truth, liberty, equality are things we stand up for.” So whatever happens, we have to continually double down on those ideals — that’s what will save us."
     
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  4. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    So you're fine with infidelity, but you draw the line at hanging out with (some) people who think as he does. Good to find out you've got some sort of limits, cool. Cool.
     
  5. Michael Burgos

    Michael Burgos Active Member

    Red herring. Please explain how demonstrated and sworn allegiance to the Constitution is compatible with fascism. And no, strict constructionism is an exegetical approach that does afford an eisegetical reading of the Constitution.
     
  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Red herring led shmerring. One can easily feel allegiance to Constitution as one of the symbols of America (along with the flag and the anthem) and be drawn to fasc-ish ideas to various degrees; it's even easier to feign an allegiance. In fact, military veterans are over-represented in far-Right movements today.

    Charles Lindbergh was a genuine patriot and an American hero, way more impressive than a JAG desk warrior like DeSantis (to be clear, there's nothing wrong with being a JAG desk warrior; I am not gonna speculate on Ron's possible involvement with torture at Gitmo). At the same time, Charles Lindbergh WAS a Nazi ideas sympathizer, and it's a good thing he never got the kind of executive power an office of the President (and even Governor) has.

    Also to be clear: I'm not saying Ron DeSantis is a racist to the degree of Lindbergh; it's not the 1930ies anymore. I'm saying he's trying to appeal to Fascist tendencies in GOPnik base and become their leader.
     
  7. Michael Burgos

    Michael Burgos Active Member

    And now an ad hominem. Let's make this easy for you. Please substantiate your claim that 1.) DeSantis advocates something akin to fascism, and 2.) DeSantis has evidenced some iteration of racism. I'll wait.
     
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  8. Charles Fout

    Charles Fout Active Member

    I must inquire - how did you arrive at such a bizarre conclusion? Did you just jump to it? or Did you take a circuitous route?
     
  9. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    You told all of us with your "liegeman for life" comment. I know I would never say something like that about someone I didn't fully support. If someone seemed amazing and was espousing the same political views as I, but I knew they kicked puppies for sport, I would not support them. Especially not to that degree. That would imply that I am okay with the puppy-kicking, when I am not.

    Since you think Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you're clearly okay with his infidelity at the very least.
     
  10. Charles Fout

    Charles Fout Active Member

    Please re-read my comment. I am President Trump's liegeman for life; based upon his appointments of Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett, alone.
    How many human lives, that would not have otherwise had any chance, will be given the opportunity of life because of those appointments?

    Oh! I do admire him for so much more. I will continue to support his candidacy to the fullest of my abilities.
     
  11. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    Which also means you're turning a blind eye to every single bad thing he's ever done, which includes infidelity. Which means you're a-okay with infidelity. So sad, IMO.
     
  12. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    And racism. And seditious conspiracy. Among other things.

    "Oh, but why are you not CIVIL towards us?"
     
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  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    You know, I'd thought someone in your field would have a firmer grasp on what "ad hominem" means. (btw, THIS is an example of ad hominem. Don't thank me.)

    Not that I owe you anything, but here is a little something on this topic:

    Is Ron DeSantis a fascist? - Robert Reich (substack.com)
     
  14. Charles Fout

    Charles Fout Active Member

    Again, How do you arrive at this conclusion???
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The argument was that Trump practices infidelity. Since you're Trump's liegeman for life then you must support infidelity.

    Sorry Rachel but that really is not a very strong argument. Charles said he loves Trump so much primarily because of his picks to the SCOTUS. He doesn't support his infidelity.
     
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  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I believe that this is an excellent example of the different realities that we live in. For example, the left believes that Biden was the fairly elected President. The right believes that Trump is the real President but the election was stolen by a secret group made up of many thousands of people in the swing states that secretly control voting machines and all kinds of levers of power. We ... oops ... I mean they have not been caught because we're ... oops ... I mean they're this tightly knit huge group of strangers that no one outside of our ... oops ... I mean they're group has ever discovered us ... oops ... I mean them. (That was a close call. I almost spilled the beans on the humungous secret group.)

    Another example, the right believes that whites, men and Christians are discriminated against in our country and not minorities. Whereas on the left we believe that minorities, minority religions like Islam and women are really the ones more likely discriminated against in this country. So DeSantis is just trying to right some of this discrimination against the poor white male Christians that are so discriminated against in our country.
     
  17. Charles Fout

    Charles Fout Active Member

    Thanks, Bill. I love that we can disagree and still be collegeal. I have fond memories of my years in San Diego. This is the season to enjoy a fine craft brew. So, from Southern Virginia Cheers to you. <3
     
  18. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    https://www.businessinsider.com/84-percent-trump-voters-worry-discrimination-whites-christianity-under-attack-2021-10
     
  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Allow me to spell it out. There are things about the Trump agenda that are, to some, an extremely serious threats. To livelihoods, limb, life, liberty. To immigrants, minorities, women, LBGTQ, Muslims. To democracy itself (which ironically would threaten the very economic interests people claim to prioritize). So when someone seemingly brushes aside all these things for a fringe ideological hang-on, it's alarming. So maybe specifically "infidelity" is not the best example, BUT I completely see where that comes from.

    Personally, my family lost a good chunk of our liquid savings, due to lost revenue, due to the delay of my immigration file processing, attributable to policies implemented by a noted little s#1t Steve Miller, installed to make good on signals Trump gave to his base in his very campaign announcement right after he stepped off that stupid elevator - and in every rally ever since. Which is, in my particular case, a very 1st-world problem, and I'm OK, and I recognize immigration is never cost- and risk-free, and as a Canadian passport holder I'm not the one to complain. Still.
     
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  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    ...which is an archetypal element of any Fascist movement; literally how #5, #10 and #13 on Eco's list manifest. My point exactly.

    P. S. I like this list, in fact because Umberto Eco is (or was recently) a bit of a cult author in russia, and russia now shows all of the traits, in spades. Freaky how "the most literate nation in the world" is remarkably bad at absorbing what it reads.
     
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