Tea leaves?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by nosborne48, Aug 24, 2020.

Loading...
  1. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    And yet strangely, like so many Canadians, he's moved here. I love you guys, you can all come here as fas as I'm concerned, but it's almost like this existential dread you all are talking about isn't quite such a deal breaker after all.

    This whole thing that I've never lived in Canada so I just can't imagine how thrilling single payer is, OMG, please stop. Everyone in the U.S. 65 and over has single payer, including my mom, whose healthcare I see first hand since I take her to her appointments (at 85 she has a lot of them). I can see that single payer works, so far as it goes. And no, none of your stereotypes of Americans has anything to do with what I'm saying. In particular, I've never understood national pride (George Carlin's bit about that is pure gold). And I've said more than once here that the health care system in the U.S. is a corporatist mess with ties to employment that make no sense, etc.

    But even if I thought M4A (single payer for everyone) were the best alternative to the present system, it's unaffordable. The U.S. federal government has already gone off the rails in borrowing money unsustainably -- 22% of all U.S. dollars that exist were created in 2020, and we're still only in October. So when M4A would nearly double the federal budget, and there are benefits that people, especially at the bottom, could get from various market reforms, I'm not sorry for believing we should try the latter first.
     
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    And since I just said all that other stuff, I'll add that Canada's approach to immigrants and refugees is much, much better than that of the U.S. Not perfect, no one's is, but vastly superior.

    For example, this latest news is eminently praiseworthy: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-starts-accepting-hong-kong-activists-as-refugees/
     
    Johann and Maniac Craniac like this.
  3. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    No it doesn't. The argument does not assume this at all. Nice strawman to build your pile of hate towards the "liberals; I also love your presumption that you can police how the underprivileged must express their "identifying with the nation", Karen.

    I won't presume I can do that, but if I did, adherence to the equal justice for all and the 1st Amendment would figure there somewhere. And I know you do not feel all that styrongly about either, champ.
     
  4. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yes it does. I do not like to praise things Canadians like to brag about, but yeah - much better, more humane, more coherent - and at the same time pragmatic, incorporating the "merit" criteria GOP claims to like to the extent few people realize. There's a problem of access to jobs that would make better use of immigrant's skills, but that's separate from the immigration system proper.
     
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    This is why: https://blog.chron.com/thetexican/2014/04/when-boris-yeltsin-went-grocery-shopping-in-clear-lake/

    I actually agree that automation may eventually lead to the need for some sort of UBI. But for that to be practical, that automation will have to be able to fund the UBI program, and we're nowhere near there yet.
     
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I understand, Steve. I just hope, for those people at the bottom that the reforms come fast and that they work.
     
  7. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Do you know how many faculty members in my department are US-born? One. One person. No skills gap? Ha!
    Anyway, this contradicts your rhetoric that Trump focuses on undocumented immigrants. He attacked virtually all aspects of LEGAL immigration in his four years, often disparaging the character of immigrants in the process. Funny - you ARE a "real American" to me, Joe Biden, and Democrats - no matter how much we disagree. Heck, even the wannabe philosopher-authoritarian hierophant is a "real American", and I have no idea whether he naturalized (and had to say the Pledge) or traveled here through a birth canal and didn't have to. Yet it is precisely Trump and the magaheads for whom your American status is tentative, conditional, at best. They may tolerate you at the moment when you parrot their propaganda, but watch your back, mate.

    As for immigration - how about we start with the bipartisan Comprehensive Reform Acts on 2006 or 2007 and build on that? Truth is, not even Republican sponsors of these bills will touch any similar efforts now - GOP will punish anything that's not cruel to immigrants. But if you like action like that, vote Biden - "bipartisanship" is one of his biggest talking points.
     
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Canada accepts somewhere near 300,000 immigrants each year (historically, about 3x as much per capita as US does). Refugee flow is not that big as a fraction of that; no question at all they'll settle just fine. And you do know there are Christians in Syria too, right?
     
  9. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I'm not a single-issue immigrant, Steve. For one, I believe American attitude towards justice and the sense of nation is much better than what Canada has.
    But are you really saying that commercialized healthcare, especially as broken as US one, is not a source of anxiety... OMG, please stop.

    I do think M4A is politically and practically unachievable in the short and medium term, and that Bernie is a sanctimonious geezer blowhard (you didn't expect anything less from a loyal HRC fan, did you?). But, but - Canadians pay half of what Americans do, on average, for what recent studies say is about twice the service. And for them, bringing one's child to the doctor is not an economic decision. Universal health is a superior product that would be worth paying somewhat more for - but it is not even more expensive at all. There is more waste in the current system. I'm confident Joe will be able to make the ACA into something workable, and it still will be more expensive than a proper M4A would be, if there was any way to just redesign the system from scratch. But we can't (and, as always, f... Bernie Sanders).
     
  10. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yeah, this. I have a hunch Lerner is old enough to have this culture shock in an American grocery shop when he came. They have proper stores back home, now, and the contrast is largely gone - but then? Night and day.
    Healthcare is a different animal, though. For many reasons.
     
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Without rehashing the rest... why do you think so? Let's assume the Democrats keep the House (likely) and take the Senate (iffy). What do you think his people will do that couldn't be done in 2009?

    (That's not a challenge, just a genuine question.)
     
  12. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I remember the 2007 bill and I was for it. I also remember work permits were suggested but immigrant workers didn't accept this as it would in their words have then go back once the permit expired.
    And make the workers exposed to deportations.
    To Trump legal immigration as it was when he took the office was flawed. He suggested a merit-based system vs chain migration. But there is no way to pass something like that without the needed support in Congress and the Senate.
    It's possible is some rare situations but its not that easy to revoke citizenship. I think there is more danger from possible revolt next moth from rioters and violent threats.
    The fact your university has no American born professors doesn't mean there is a skills gap. Many businesses hire for other reasons and abuse the H1 visa. And there are highly talented people in the world. It's OK to supplement but not to abuse. I would make everyone hiring foreign employees instead of local to pay additional taxes or pay the same salary etc and put other protections for hiring local employees.
    As I shared in the previous post, how my good friend was phased out and replaced by Indian H1b workers. When you have children and want them to have jobs when they are out of school but the jobs are taken by foreign workers you will sing a different song. It's cheaper to import workers that are willing to work for much less and be "slaves".
    Now there are jobs out there that its hard to find workers for, because of low low wages and hard work, in the fields etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Public option was a radical idea for many Democrats in 2009. Now M4A is no longer a marginal idea, and improved ACA with public option can be a nice, moderate, compromise. For one, they will be able to do what Trump failed - propose a coherent plan - and Joe has a not insignificant political talent to work the Congress to see it through.
     
  14. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Oh FFS - Trump is a President, for 4 years, who cares at this moment what he "suggested"? The only Congressional action he supported that got voted on is the Cotton-Purdue Cut Immigration In Half Act of 2017. On executive side, he let Steven Miller ruin everything he possibly could for legal applicants (remember, I work with an immigration professional at my school right now. She is, to put it mildly, not amused - and university cases are among the most straightforward). Steve Miller is a lifelong xenophobe. None of this is secret, or particularly new.

    And, for the love of God the Most High, stop drinking hate speech and use garbage terms like "chain migration". It's family reunification, Lerner - you know, one that Melania completed for her parents this year. Please.
     
  15. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    A big unknown is if Biden elected is how long he will be in the office, some speculate, others possibly plan that Biden will retire at some point due to health condition.

    From 2008 to 2016 Obama and Biden didn't make immigration reform. The US deported millions and we all seen 2014 pictures of children in cages from the Obama /Biden era.
     
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    What in the world are you talking about? They did a Senate bill in 2013, again, bipartisan. House Republicans killed it.
     
  17. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Canadian immigration is an interesting system.
    There is a strict process in place.
    Some might think that once you’re in, you’re in, but that’s just not the case.
    Quebec-Selected Skilled Workers: The Province of Quebec selects its own skilled workers.
    Provincial Nominee Program: Provinces (except Quebec) nominate the immigrants they would like, based on criteria they set that address their own needs.
    As mentioned earlier by Johann Canada also has a proud humanitarian tradition of Refugee resettlement.

    Each country has a process.
     
  18. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I'm talking about a bipartisan bill. Why did the House Republicans kill it? We need a bipartisan bill.
    For this reason, a close friend of mine voted today for libertarians.
    While he is against the Libertarian Immigration policy, he would like to see a similar to Canadian Immigration policy, the rest he prefers their views and didn't feel he wants to vote for Dems or GOP.
    What province it was in Russia that they needed a competing candidate so they nominated a cleaning lady. After the elections they got a surprise, people of that area hated the candidate so much they voted for the cleaning lady who wan the elections.
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    dangerous groups on both sides. This time appears a right-wing group.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/feds-charge-six-militia-members-160654002.html

     
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Ask the Rebublicans.
    My answer: that is because the GOP was turning into a party for which cruelty to the weak IS the paramount principle, and not a means to an end. The transformation is complete when they unified under the Internet troll ass their President.
    Look: you noted yourself that Obama was not all that liberal on immigration. He was all for deportations, border security, not against merit-based principle etc. The whole thing was killed because of the path to citizenship for the undocumented. These people are here, and there is no practical way to deport them - so no one is proposing that. GOP is not against them being here - they are against "amnesty", meaning the way for them to get legal status and human rights. "Let them be there, but with no rights except working for the man and being silent". This is not good for the country etc.: that's just cruel, and it's the point.

    Smaller example: cancelling H4 Employment Authorization Document program. The whole thing is only necessary because work-based green card process is
    dysfunctional and takes ungodly amount of time. So an H4 spouse of an H1 worker, usually from India, who already has his Green Card petition approved but was waiting for the date to become current, could request an EAD and go to work. This affects Indians, in particular: because of the per-country quota they can wait for their Green Cards for well over a decade (China, less, but still years). So, did Trump try to fix the broken-ass process? No. He just cancelled H4 EAD program. Being cruel to (legal!) people for no friggin' reason.

    (btw, in Canada, the spouse of the person with temporary worker status can unrestricted right to work. Same, spouse of a foreign student).
     

Share This Page