Scary: Site selling degrees from Reputable University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, May 4, 2016.

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  1. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Not sure if this is possible but this site offers degrees from what they call reputable universities not just fake ones.. Just email them and ask about their service and you would be surprised by the names they send back.

    LINK REMOVED BY MODERATOR

    This is very wrong to be selling degrees from reputable schools. Of course maybe its a fake diploma being passed as real..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2016
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    First, this has been going on for decades, if not centuries.

    Second, employers and other consumers can easily and quickly verify someone's degree.

    Third, it is a simple thing to replicate diplomas and transcripts, customizing them even.

    Finally, they're not selling "degrees." A degree is a title bestowed upon someone by a university. What they're selling are "diplomas" and, perhaps, "transcripts." But as I implied above, you can purchase these things and still not have a degree, a fact that is simple to check.

    I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I am good at everything. -- Demetri Martin
     
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I removed the link to the site, we have no desire to give those sites any business or traffic.
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, I think the links can be illustrative, plus I'm always for more openness, not less. On the other, I agree with Bruce's point--also made by others--that having them here lifts the profile of those sites when searched for.

    On balance, I have to agree with the mods and the removal.

    I recall John Bear going through this in the pre-internet days regarding listing contact information for the degree mills he wrote about. Was this just giving them free advertising, or was it important to let people see these things first hand. IIRC, he eventually removed them. (Jeez, I have the books in my library downstairs; I oughta go look.)
     
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Some years back, it was possible to buy a fake Russian diploma with a difference - it would be from a "real" State University and some corrupt person working on campus would enter the buyer's name into the school's records, creating a fake transcript and all other pertinent records. Everything could then be verified - just like any "real" student. It was called проведенный диплом - provedennyi diplom and I think cost averaged around $7500 to ~$10,000.

    Putin's government put a stop to this type of corruption in the early 2000s, with a real game-changer. Bogus "Diploma-selling sites" were set up on the Internet by Russian police to bust those who applied. It worked pretty well. One such site led to the arrest of 75 "applicants" - some (not all) of them politicians!

    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  6. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    You can buy those diplomas at Moscow tube stations too, on original templates printed by Goznak, with all safety features and the correct serial numbers.
     
  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    In any case, this is Chip's policy and we follow it regardless. I'll add, however, that DegreeInfo's pages are given high priority in Google searches. You can experiment the next time you make a thread by waiting about a day and searching for the exact same topic in Google. More than likely, the DegreeInfo thread will appear somewhere on the first page. To allow spammer and/or scammer links to stay up is giving them a powerful tool for free advertising and, possibly, the unwarranted illusion of credibility.

    Case in point: https://www.google.com/search?q=selling+degrees+from+reputable+university&oq=selling+degrees+from+reputable+university On my search, I got this page as the second hit.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  8. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Is it a worry about the link attaching to search? If so, that makes sense. However, I recall a board that used to put some sort of tag around the link so that it didn't show up as a link and didn't get picked up by search engines. Of course, that was some years ago and search technology has probably figured out ways to still pick up things somehow.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Interesting - absolutely genuine-looking diplomas, I'm sure. But I suspect they're not "verifiable" i.e no entries are made in the school's records, in the purchaser's name, like a проведенный диплом (provedennyi diplom.) Well, I guess you can't expect even Vladimir Putin to be able to end all corruption for good. :smile:

    In Toronto, I'm told, one can buy masterfully-made fakes of Canadian university diplomas, indistinguishable from the real thing, that cost $3,000. By buying one, the purchaser is one verification request away from disaster, of course. Nice wall-hangers, though - but pricey. :smile:

    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes indeed - really good fakes, cheap, in the Moscow subway. $500 - $1,000. They're so good, partly because a huge number of "real" blank diplomas were stolen. Verification? No - you're on your own!

    Article about Moscow Subway diplomas here:

    Fake Diplomas No Longer Buy a University Education | News | The Moscow Times

    Found another - including account of Medical diplomas for sale in the subway for $550 - but it was so old (2006) I didn't bother including it.

    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    From the above article:

    Only 8%? That sounds huge! Oh well, maybe it isn't, comparatively speaking. One expert - who should know - estimated yearly US sales of fake diplomas at 100,000, so... :sad:

    J.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Shortly after I joined the Navy a friend from Scranton left the university a year shy of graduation. He got a commercial real estate gig in New York City and he was really excited to get to work.

    He told them, however, that he had graduated. To the employer's credit they wanted to see some official transcripts. He had a set of doctored transcripts made up. He put it in a UScranton envelope, which he printed at home, and he put some sort of fancy seal on the envelope along with a warning that the transcripts were only official if the seal was intact.

    His employer got transcripts that looked real enough, came in an envelope that looked like it could very well be legitimate and had a postmark from Scranton, PA. That was all they needed.

    He eventually did lose his nerve with this rouse. It was partially prompted by my firing someone who pulled the same trick, but with a degree from King's College, at my first post-Navy employer. He went back to school, finished off his necessary credits and had his degree awarded just before switching to a new employer.

    My point is that, even when degree verification is done, verifiers typically rely upon student provided information to actually verify things. That's the reason why people with Almeda degrees get through screenings. Most verification companies don't check accreditation, they don't check the NSC clearinghouse, they call a school, fax the authorization form and "verify" what you said was accurate and true.

    The easiest way to lie about a degree is to simply say you have a degree from a place where you haven't earned a degree. In 85% of the scenarios where you'll be asked about your degree this will likely suffice.
     
  13. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Technically, if a person puts down that they graduated from a diploma mill, they aren't lying. It's just, the act of getting a milled diploma itself is dishonest. It's disappointing that there doesn't seem to be much if any training available for screeners to know what schools are fake and how to use the proper databases. Or, at least I assume there isn't since so many frauds are getting through.
     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My personal experience and my observations of this subject over the past (nearly 4) decades jibes with this perspective. I can't vouch for the exact percentage quoted here, but it feels right when I think back on my own interviewing over the years--and my doctoral dissertation on it.

    I don't recall anyone ever--EVER--asking me about my degrees. I've had to verify them on a (very) few occasions, but always (with one exception) with either copies of my diplomas (really?) or unofficial copies of transcripts (seriously?). Even the federal government didn't ask for original transcripts--.jpg images of my transcripts were fine. And in most job applications, I wasn't even asked to prove anything; they just accepted what I said to be true. (Not even one has questioned why a nice California boy like me has a doctorate from a British university....located in a city THAT NOW RULES THE RICHEST SOCCER LEAGUE IN THE WORLD!

    Okay, sorry about that. But I think Neuhaus is right, and I think it is the root cause of the diploma mill industry. Other forces contribute--diplomaism, for example--but if employers would thoroughly and consistently check, it would devastate diploma mills. (No, it wouldn't. But it would help themselves, their workers, and applicants with legitimate credentials. That would be a good thing.)

    Neuhaus and I both hold the SPHR. This isn't even covered by the certification's competencies nor the qualifying examination. That's telling.
     
  15. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I made up the 85% but based it on a similar gut perception. It was also influenced, at least in part, from my father assuring me that 85% of life is just showing up.

    Any time I've been asked for "proof" of my education all that had been requested was a photocopy of the diploma. The easiest part of a college education to forge. The thing that anyone with a basic Microsoft Suite can make during the first 15 minutes of their lunch break. That's the thing they wanted.

    I've offered transcripts. Most don't care. Those that do have said "unofficial" transcripts are fine and were more than willing to accept stuff I printed off of the CTU online campus website.

    I don't disagree that the diploma mill industry has played into this. But I will add that a contributing factor is that HR reps are constantly pushed to close requisitions. Sure, hiring managers want to hire someone quickly and efficiently. But in many organizations the number of reqs you close (and how long they remained open) is a metric that is used to evaluate HR professionals at various levels.

    So, you have the organization's "gatekeeper" who is evaluated, not by how well they keep that gate, but by how quickly they can usher people through it. Add to that an ignorance of accreditation and what do you have? Ignorant people in a hurry to just hire someone.

    The biggest holdup for most hiring is very often the hiring manager. Hiring managers very often want to buy a unicorn at a horse auction. But it also happens that there simply isn't an adequate applicant pool for some specialized jobs. Consider, I live and work in upstate New York. We're at least 4 hours away from NYC. When my marketing department opens a requisition for a videographer with over 10 years of production experience, how many qualified applicants might I reasonably get?

    I'll tell you that I get more than a handful of people who think the job sounds neat. Some of them have some film school experience. Most are YouTube tinkerers and Tarantino wannabes. I get a few former camera men from local news stations. I get a bunch of photographers who say things in their cover letters like "though I have no videography experience the leap from photography is pretty short..."

    So when an experienced videographer actually shows up on our doorstep, with the requisition creeping up on 6 months old, the desire to do a deep dive into him/her isn't really that appealing. Not so much because we would "rather not know" but because those deep dives take time. And when you take too much time you run the risk of losing that candidate to an employer who acted faster. Besides, for a job like that, your portfolio matters a lot more than if you actually wrapped up your final semester at Full Sail University.

    So, which came first? Diploma mills or HR/Hiring manager apathy? No idea. But I'd wager that they play off of one another. There are probably a dozen or so other things that factor in as well. The most immediate one that comes to my mind is hiring managers who want someone who can "do the job" and don't give a lick about education. Happens more than you think.
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Same here. I've had to supply official transcripts for grad school admissions, of course, but I don't think any prospective employer has ever asked for proof of my academic history.
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I want to emphasize something I said beyond providing proof: I've never even been asked about my degrees during interviews, except once (recently)--and that wasn't good.

    We see so much worrying about degree titles, names of schools, and how our degrees were earned, but it just doesn't come up that often. I have degrees from schools in three different cities in which I've never lived. (The exception is my MBA from National--I'm a native of San Diego.) No one asks. I have a PhD in a weird field (Nontraditional Higher Education). No one asks. I have bachelor's degrees from a school that you cannot find anymore--USNY Regents--no one bats an eye. I have a doctorate from a university in another freakin' country--no one even flinches. Except once.

    I was interviewing with a company a bit ago. They flew me down to Atlanta--one of their headquarters sites--for a face-to-face. The hiring manager--who was completely wasting my time, I could tell--had a doctorate and noticed I had two. She said, "well, the government paid for those, right?" As if that somehow mattered. (Not true anyway; the first has a huge student loan debt tied to it and the second I paid for out of pocket.) That was it. I couldn't wait to get out of there and to this day I can't figure out why they even flew me in. That tale was just one of several weird data points. (I think she used to be the CLO and they created a new position for her to move her out of the way and were giving her a few staff to play with.)

    They don't care where you went to school, how you earned your degrees, etc. They often don't even care what your degrees are in. WE care because it's our careers. But others, largely, do not.
     
  18. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I don't think anything irritates me more than the waste-my-time interview. No politician could ever kick off the amount of rage that I feel coursing through my veins whenever I realize, entirely too late, that the interview was just for show. Unless, of course, the politician was doing a show interview with me.

    The last one I had involved me driving for four hours, being told they don't pay travel reimbursement for candidates, taken out to lunch by the VP of HR, who told the waitress at the conclusion of our meal that we would have separate checks, and not a single relevant question about my experience let alone my education.

    If there was any doubt in my mind, the receptionist had mercy on me as I left and told me they actually hired someone three days before but felt they "owed me" the interview since they scheduled it before the guy accepted.

    Not even HR people are immune from HR. Incidentally, the guy they hired instead of me? His B.S. was from an NA school (I believe it was Grantham). And I'd bet they didn't blink twice when they saw his education on his resume.
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Okay, I'll tell it. I interviewed on the phone for this huge health insurance company. The hiring manager then invited me to fly down to Atlanta. (The job could be located at any of their sites--all over the country.) The pre-paid my ticket, but when I got to the hotel, the room was NOT pre-paid. Okay, $125, no big deal. (I figured they would reimburse, right?) I go to the interview site the next morning. I'm there 5 minutes early, and I wait. And wait. And wait. Almost an hour later, she comes down to the lobby and greets me--never letting me know while I was waiting what was going on, or even that I WAS waiting. Then no explanation or apology for being nearly an hour late.

    I follow her to the interview room, not knowing what to expect, but thinking there will be a panel or--as it often happens--a series of interviews. Nope. Just her. A repeat of the phone interview, to the letter. Except for the stupid comment about the government paying for my degrees (they didn't) that made me feel like some sort of leech. It was over in about 30 minutes. I caught a plane home that afternoon. I never heard from them again, nor did they even offer to reimburse my room. I could have pressed it, I'm sure, but it wasn't worth it.

    My take? The company wanted to fire her from her CLO position, but didn't want a lawsuit on their hands, so they pushed her aside, made up a job (I'm an HRD professional and I never did understand what she was trying to be in charge of.), and gave her a few staffing slots to fill. I suspect she had someone in mind--a crony--for the position, but had to make it look like she was considering multiple candidates. It was a sham. (Think of the most famous health insurance company you can. I was completely caught off guard.) I've never written about it before--it happened a year ago. If I seem bitter and angry, well...yeah. Or, at least, I was. Now I'm just bewildered.

    It's not the only strange thing I've ever seen in the interviewing process, but it's close. I once accepted a job, gave notice to my old employer, and then got a call from the new company saying not to resign, that they were having contract problems with their customer. That new job never materialized! Fortunately, I was able to hang on to my old job for a few months and then moved on. Or the number of times you interview and then never hear a thing either way. This stuff happens all over the place--by people who must have been on the other end of things before. You'd think they'd act better.

    Lots of crazy out there.
     
  20. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    I remember having the option to buy a fake ID in high school, the fact that it had my state's name on it didn't make it any more real. Fake is fake.
     

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