If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by Lerner, Apr 29, 2013.

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  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    True - but you decide to what extent it is true. Certainly, managers cannot be trained solely by classroom-based learning. However, I was taught a course or two in supervision, administration etc. when I took some undergrad business studies at University. I believe there were valuable principles imparted in those classes. The classroom does not make a manager - but I think it surely contributes to the making.

    If nothing else, in finishing a degree program, a person should have learned to think more clearly than before. Thinking (especially one one's feet) is a vital management skill.

    Johann
     
  2. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Just a bit of humor :veryhappy: From what I hear, ryoder is the one you have to look out for.
     
  3. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Anyone can be a manager. Managing is simply pushing papers and delegating work. Managers can be made in a classroom, leaders cannot.
     
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes - but not a good, or effective one. I've worked for/with good ones and the "anyone" variety - a helluva difference, I can assure you. Heck, I was a manager myself at one point. What kind? That's debatable. :smile: Maybe your poor opinion of managers stems from having worked for/with bad or ineffective ones.

    Managers do perform valuable and necessary work - or why would businesses employ them? Yes, the best of them are leaders and such people are not "made" in the classroom. They bring far more than class-learning to the table -- but they DO bring that, too. It's far from useless, as I see it. Useless without the personal attributes to back it up, though -- I'll agree to that.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2013
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    My whole point is: the classroom (or distance-ed) is a necessary part of the apprenticeship. It teaches basic principles and fosters clear thinking. And yes -- to a certain extent, it also weeds out by attrition some of those who are unsuited, at the front end. That's not a bad thing, either.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2013
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    This is why majority of professional societies view a professional as some one who has:

    Education + Training + Experience.

    They award some kind of registration or certification based on verification and / or examination following the above formula.
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes - there's a formula I can believe in, Lerner. AUTiger00 believes that managers don't need that - he says "anyone can be a manager." I hope his impressive credentials propel him into stratospheric career heights - where he will not face the demeaning burden of having to work with, deal with or (God forbid!) lead lowly managers ever again. :sad:

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2013
  8. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Oh, I've worked with all kinds. I've had excellent managers and terrible ones. I've had ones I'd walk through fire for and others I'd like to throw in a fire. Just to be clear, I'm not saying education can't make someone a better manager than they would be without said education, I'm just saying no amount of education can make someone a good leader. There are just attributes of leaders that you're not going to gain sitting in classes, even at the most amazing schools. Case in point, I have a close friend that thinks he is an amazing leader. He has the pedigree, graduated from a top-10 LAC and a top-10 MBA program, worked for a tier 1 consulting firm before graduate school. He has done very little since completing his MBA and it's because he can't lead people effectively. Would I put the guy in charge of delegating work? Sure. Would I trust him to get people to buy into a vision and execute strategy at the highest levels. Not a chance in hell.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That's what you said.

    Johann
     
  10. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    There is value in the study of management. Keep in mind that the study of management is fairly new to the world. Frederick Taylor was the father of the discipline and he published his first major work around 1911. People have been studying mathematics, law, and others for probably thousands of years. So it is a new field and people are still uncomfortable with the role of the manager.
     
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Must be. Plenty of MBA and M.S. programs with a management focus. Definitely more than "simply pushing papers and delegating work" as defined earlier. :smile: I'll never get over some of the definitions they teach folks at those fancy schools!

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2013
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    If that were true (and it isn't) then why would this degree be offered? Doctor of Management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Perhaps significantly, the degree is not offered at Harvard, Vanderbilt or Auburn... :smile:

    Johann
     
  13. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Is there some reason you continue to attack my statement? You don't have to agree with me but I'm entitled to my opinion. In terms of the Doctor of Management degree, I suppose it's offered because some people are willing to spend money on it and there probably is some value in the study of management. I didn't say pushing paper and delegating work couldn't be refined and made more efficient, only that anyone can do it on the most basic level.
     
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    No, but DBAs are, at least at Harvard, and I don't see a meaningful conceptual difference between the two. :smile:
     
  15. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Part of the controversy may perhaps be in attempting to simply compartmentalize management theory as a detached discipline. My take is that a terminal degree in management would /should likely be comprehensive of leadership studies /theory as well. Conversely, a leadership concentration ought to incorporate a quantity of areas in management studies as well.

    More significant; will either discipline study, separate or in combination; make in certainty the recipient a constructive leader and/or manager … definitely not in my view? As a former officer of Marines … I recall the Marine Corps adage was that genuine leaders are made and not born. (e.g., a taught, developed and inspired conduct —leadership is both a process and a position). Too often leadership and management are likened as synonymous activities; they’re not. Countless organizations are “over-managed” and “under-led”. There needs to be symmetry between leadership and management (i.e., leader-managers).

    Note: All leaders have followers … even destructive /dark-side (toxic) leaders —while constructive leadership is both pro-organization and pro-subordinate (e.g., having a positive persuasion on organizational and worker performance).
     
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Well-said, Major56. The whole post, that is -- not just the excerpt. Much to think about, here. Thank you!

    Johann
     
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I'll accept that, Steve. Looks like Steve - 1, Johann - 0. No surprise. :smile:

    I did find something interesting in another thread, though. Harvard DOES offer a Certificate in Strategic Management. Wow! $10,000 for a certificate! It's here: Business Certificate | Strategic Management Training at Harvard

    Obviously, Harvard assigns significant value to the study of management. :jester:

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2013
  18. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    HBS assigns significant value to getting a lot of money from people willing to spend $10k on a certificate.
     
  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Indeed. Good to see you got my joke. I put the sign out -- :jester:

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2013

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