Is Law School a Losing Game?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Koolcypher, Jan 9, 2011.

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  1. Koolcypher

    Koolcypher Member

  2. Koolcypher

    Koolcypher Member

    I specially like this guy's attitude towards his mountain of debt:

    "Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”

    He gives a slight shrug and a smile as he heads back to work. “It could be worse,” he says. “It’s not like they can put me jail.”

    This is ridiculous, where is personal responsibility from ones own action? If this is the mentality that today's youth go to college with, then we are sure to bankrupt the country even faster, we are going downhill. First the girl with the $200k loan from NYU asking for help, now LAWYERS, I mean LAWYERS, are asking for bailouts, what's next? Doctor's, nurses, teachers (teachers should be receiving help, imo), sociologists, musicians, out-of-work actors, art school graduates, I mean where do we stop? I sense that the education bubble, which is huge, is about to be popped.
     
  3. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Sorry, I don't to be mean. But, isn't that from Northeastern University?

    Well, student loans soon to be the next financial crises. If the students default the loans, then the banks have to ask the Government for bailout. Which I don't really want this country is getting into that situation. Especially, I work really hard to pay my tuition...even though I am entitle to the GI Bill, but I have to pay my due up front. Also, I take advantage of every single dollar from my employment's tuition assistance benefit and some out of my pocket.

    As much as I want to attend big name school, but I believe that can't afford it. For example, I really want to attend Harvard Business School for MBA; however, I don't think I can afford $160,000.00 for 2 years tuition. And I don't see that I could pay off that loan in 5 years. Therefore, I avoid...if one decides to take the risk, then he or she is responsible for his or her action.
     
  4. GeneralSnus

    GeneralSnus Member

    This will never happen simply because the banks have a literal lifetime to recoup their money and they continue accruing interest while they wait.
     
  5. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The latter point is basically correct. Student loans, unlike credit card debt or mortgages, never go away -- even if you declare bankruptcy.

    If you default on a student loan, then your wages can be garnished, your income tax refunds can be intercepted, and your Social Security benefits can be taken away. No kidding.

    The student loan industry makes it easy and convenient for students in unemployable majors to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars for school. They actively market these loans to kids who are not old enough to buy a six-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon.

    Why do they have such ridiculously lax lending standards? Because they aren't concerned about the risk of default.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2011
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The American Bar Association itself acknowledges the issues. They published an analysis of the situation in November 2009, and concluded:

     
  7. This issue goes way beyond law school. A few months ago it was a student that spent 100k+(something I like that) on an English degree, before then it was an MD with 200k in loans. In the next few months there may be a 125k MBA, or a 175k Ph. D. It's no reflection up the professions themselves, but rather the individuals. I think TEKMAN said it best "As much as I want to attend big name school, but I believe that can't afford it." It's failing to adhere to the latter part of the sentence is what often gets people into "trouble."
     
  8. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    A law degree is a fast and easy way to get a degree that you can then pretend is a "doctorate"... Seems like a pretty good deal.
     
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Law degrees are neither fast nor easy.

    -=Steve=-
     
  10. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Thanks for sharing that Cal Dog. It's encouraging that somebody is at least telling the truth about the situation. I wish that all of the for-profit universities had an association like the American Bar Assn. to supply honest information to prospective students.
     
  11. brow276

    brow276 Member

    I don't think that the majority of law students go after the degree for that reason...
     
  12. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    Either that or a California Approved school like California University Of Business And Technology!
     
  13. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Law school? Fast? lol, what are you, immortal?
     
  14. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    It's easy to put the blame for student loan debt on "the irresponsible kids of today", but the reality is that the problems do, in fact, reflect changes in the professions. There is no way around the facts that:

    (1) law school tuition has risen much faster than inflation. A law school student today faces far heftier tuition bills than those of previous generations.

    (2) JD production has expanded much more quickly than the legal job market. A JD graduate today faces a far more saturated market than those of previous generations.

    To document point 1, consider the following numbers for a year of law school tuition and fees. These are from the University of Pennsylvania, a private Ivy League school, which keeps a record of its historical tuition costs.

    2010: $ 46,514
    2000: $ 28,408
    1990: $ 15,886
    1980: $ 6,300
    1970: $ 2,550
    1960: $ 1,200

    Obviously these numbers would have to be adjusted for inflation. But even so, in 1960, law school tuition and fees at Penn were only $ 8,870 in 2010 dollars. And remember, Penn is a private, Ivy League school. Public schools would have been less.

    It's hard for people to accept that they can't afford what their parents or grandparents could afford.

    I have an older relative who is a retired lawyer; he graduated from a private law school around 1960. At that time, law school tuition was not an overwhelming concern, even if you came from a working-class or middle-class background with no family support. You could work part-time and in the summer, make enough to pay your way through law school, and graduate debt-free. And that's what people did.

    But it's one thing to pay your way through school when the tuition bill is ~ $9,000 per year ( = 1960 tuition in 2010 dollars). Realistically, the situation is a bit different when the tuition bill is ~ $46,000 per year (= 2010 tuition in 2010 dollars). If law students today borrow more money, it's not just because they are slackers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2011
  15. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Well, things have changed over times. We cannot blame on the academic institutions. In the 1960, I am sure the school did not spend hundred thousand dollars or even millions to have their computer network infrastructure. For example, it costs the school money to issue students email accounts. I am sure the instructors/professors salaries have gone up as well. It costs everything to operate a college; unless they attend private - profit institution likes University of Phoenix.

    To me, if I don't have a big dream. I just attend normal school to obtain a college degree. For example, I attended Troy University for Bachelor degree at the time the tuition was only $150.00 per credit. The DoD tuition assistance only $4,500.00 per fiscal year; I could choose Agrosy University by taking two classes (6 credits) with that amount. But I did not, I chose Troy University where I could take 10 courses (30 credits). I graduated 2 years later, I spent only $2,000.00 out of my pocket for fees and textbooks (sold textbooks and got some back).

    I chose Southern Methodist University over George Washington University because SMU offers 50% discount for active duty. I choose Georgetown University for my second Master degree because I get full ride under Post 9/11 GI Bill - Yellow Ribbon Program. And I choose Capella University for my Ph.D is in the same token. Based on my plan, I'll walk out from Capella University with zero student loan.

    My point is depending on one's decision. Why would someone attend University of Phoenix with expensive tuition, when he or she could find a cheaper and better program out there? I used to have a guy worked for me, who left American InterContinental University with an Associate degree in Business Administration. And he owed (or still owes) $40,000.00 student loan. I recommend him to apply Fort Hays University for his Bachelor degree. He is about toe graduate from the program, and he spend less than $10,000.00 (with transfer credits).
     
  16. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    TEKMAN,
    I agree with everything you said but I do not understand the above comment. It sounds like you are saying for-profits do not have expenses. What do you mean?
     
  17. I agree with both of your points. Yet still come to a different conclusion. The cost of education in general has risen, and when compared to the past it's beyond the point of even being laughable. This is no secret though. That's public knowledge, and really not that hard to see once a person does just a tid bit of research. You yourself pulled up the the tuition increases over a 50 year time frame, and I'm willing to bet that it didn't take you that much research. If a student knows this yet still chooses to attend a high costing school that's the "gamble" they make. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
     
  18. SouthernGent

    SouthernGent New Member

    I believe you make a great point about people taking the gamble, no matter the cost-benefit data before them. At LSU Law, I am around some great down to earth people, but somehow have an overinflated sense of their market value. I believe a lot of this has to do with their ignorance of the job market, pumped up stereotypes from family and friends, and society's perception of all lawyers making it big.

    People make their own choices. I had the option to go to top tier schools but decided to attend LSU for the following reasons:

    1) Relatively cheap in-state tuition rate
    2) A small scholarship (about 1/4 tuition remission)
    3) Strong bar passage rate

    Notice that job outcome was not one of them for me. I knew that the hill would be tough to climb and accept that it will not be all peaches and cream after I pass the bar. I chose the cheapest route for me to get a JD, put my nose to the grindstone, and will take the job necessary to pay off my debts. Some people's priorities are not in line with that reasoning. They want the "prestige" of going to a top tier school, to be able to be a snob even if it means being poor. We can't help people in that category. Those are people who put a bad light on those trying to make it with only federal loans and not taking out exorbitant private loans.

    Ignorance plays a major part of student decisions to enter law school. My entering class was 223 students (the largest ever at LSU). I was invited to take a summer course prior to the start of law school. It was for "non-traditional" students (i.e. students who had been in the real world for a little while). It was astounding to see that LSU, which is one of the more friendly schools to non-traditionals only have about 30 non-traditional students in my entering class. Nearly 200 students entering law school at LSU came straight out of undergraduate programs, without any significant work experience. Tulane, which is in the top tier, is less friendly and accepts a lower rate of non-trad. students (common for top tier schools). Their average age of student entering was 23 (LSU's was 25). I can only imagine how naive that entering class was.

    Obviously, we are dealing with people who really do not know what the job market is like, and for that matter, what the world is like. Many of these people are my friends and are hard workers in school, but have no idea of how difficult employment will be and the employer expectation of work product for even the lowest paying legal jobs.
     
  19. dlalum

    dlalum New Member

    Degrees are investments and should be treated as such. Anyone can simply read books or surround themselves with intelligent people if they only desire more information. There is no justification for taking out a couple hundred thousand dollars in loans to go to a school that won't boost career prospects. I can understand loans to go to a top law school. Going to Harvard, Georgetown, Duke or any other top school is most likely a good investment even with some outliers who will struggle to find work.
     
  20. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    In comparison to a real doctorate (which requires a dissertation), the law degree is a slam dunk...
     

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