Threat of the week from Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Chip, Apr 15, 2009.

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  1. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member


    Dang Toulon was a bargain...
     
  2. Breizhou

    Breizhou Member

    Well it is hard to resist a spicy Jambalaya !


    I disagree, an important number of private schools WITH accredited programs offer them through VAE, and that's great. That's also the real VAE !
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    If people really want to have a political discussion, then the political forum might be a better place for it. The only relevance here is that this purported French attorney tried to intimidate Degreeinfo by citing his own interpretation of a French law that he argues gives Sorbon special rights here on this board. I cited the rights that Americans have under the United States Constitution back at him.

    Almost every thread that's mentioned Sorbon was originally started by a Sorbon representative. Sorbon's proprietor tries to exploit the internet discussion boards, Degreeinfo among others, as his free advertising media.

    That isn't consistent with these latest legal "right of response" threats, btw, if the only reason that this discussion board (not a "blog") even talks about Sorbon is when Sorbon promotes itself here. Are they claiming some Gallic right to respond to themselves? Do they want magic immunity from critical replies?

    Even if a diploma mill awards the VAE "degree"?

    The letters 'VAE' are just French initials equivalent to 'prior learning assessment'. That's not really a controversial subject. The fact that France passed a law allowing university credit to be awarded by prior learning assessments doesn't imply that any prior learning diplomas, awarded by any business that purports to be French, must therefore be academically credible.

    That seems to be Sorbon's argument.

    Other countries, Britain and the United States among them, allow unaccredited schools and even degree mills to flourish. France is different? People are supposed to trust Sorbon simply because of its purported nationality?

    It's not "jingoism" to expect any internet mystery-school, whatever its mailing address, especially one flying as many red-flags as Sorbon is doing (it looks like a Mao tse Tung rally), to display convincing and verifiable evidence of its legitimacy before it's uncritically presented to readers as a viable and valuable DL choice.

    Ethics and responsibility can't just be forgotten. Nobody is under any obligation to accept anything on faith.

    Nationality isn't the issue. "VAE" isn't either. Sorbon's academic status and credibility are the only things that really matter.
     
  4. naios

    naios New Member

    What are the credentials of the people doing the assessments? What are the standards for deeming whether someone's work qualifies for a degree?
     
  5. silvertoday

    silvertoday New Member

    interesting

    Kizmet , I read your post with great interest , I guess perhaps since I wrote posts in-between conversations maybe I cut some corners - however I came to this site to seek information about getting higher/additional degrees , but reading your post maybe I better take some english classes ! (FYI I have B.Sc and MBA so soemhow I passed my examinations !)

    By the way, this is a very helpful website .

    Back to Sorbon :

    1. France has very high educational standards , and my experience far higher than the United States and it is very regulated , hence on the surface I find it hard to believe Robert de Sorbon could operate for 5 years IF they were a "diploma mill". I see nothing to say they are not authorized to award VAE degrees.

    2. As far as credibility of such degrees I have nothing to base an opinion on having not (a) spoken to anyone who has such a degree (b) spoken with anyone in France how such degrees are viewed. I did speak with someone in Belgium who told me that such a degree would be considered helpful ,confirming someone had a certain level of experience , but that definitely it would be expected if someone listed the degree, it would be followed by VAE. The person I spoke to indicated he was surprized there would be any issue at all i.e. about what a VAE degree was.

    3. I still believe 50% of Sorbon's problem is the website , it appears to be haphazard and reminds one of various diploma mill-type sites.

    There many people on this site with more experience than me with such matters, my question :

    A. Is there anything definitive saying Sorbon is not authorized to grant such degrees ?
    B. Does anyone know of other institutions perhaps more established that grant these degrees and how was the process ?
     
  6. raristud

    raristud Member

    "hence on the surface I find it hard to believe Robert de Sorbon could operate for 5 years IF they were a "diploma mill". I see nothing to say they are not authorized to award VAE degrees."

    Yes degreemills can and have operated for years. I'm sure forum members can give you examples. Can you prove to me that they are authorized to award VAE degrees. Is there definitive proof? Do you have a link and contact information to the proper educational that authorized Sorbon award "VAE degrees"? I see nothing, no proof, to say that sorbon is authorized to award anything.

    "Does anyone know of other institutions perhaps more established that grant these degrees and how was the process ?"

    Do you....Zurich.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  7. Woho

    Woho New Member

    This discussion is coming up over and over again. Can somebody with some decent French writing skills send an email over to their education ministry and ask about the Degree Mill/Degrees for Life Experience situation in their country?
    I guess it's http://www.education.gouv.fr/. Than we might saddle this once and for all and get a decent explanation what the real situation is...
     
  8. CDELAFAIDE

    CDELAFAIDE member

    Answer if published...

    Yes we Can!!!

    1) Degree mills are illegal in France and we are under the control of the Academie de Poitiers. We had many controls and are legal for 5 years. If we were illegal we would have been shut down. Please see the quality of our juries which include a Dean & Vice-Rector of a public university.

    2) If you read our pages you will see that we are authorized to grant degree this public citation is by the "responsable de la VAE à l’université de Poitier" There is another citation from another official confirming We are authorized to grant degrees and to use the VAE procedure.

    3) VAE is a the law of the landand all public and private universities must have this procedure available. As far as we know in 2005 more than 15,000 degrees were awarded through the VAE source Ministry of education.
     
  9. raristud

    raristud Member

    PROOF with links to contact information and source of VAE approval that shows that Sorbon is authorized to award degrees. Not testimonials and unverifiable text. As far as you know? Do you not know? Who may we contact within the French Government?

    "If you read our pages you will see that we are authorized to grant degree this public citation is by the "responsable de la VAE à l’université de Poitier" There is another citation from another official confirming We are authorized to grant degrees and to use the VAE procedure."

    - That means absolutely nothing since the statement comes from your web site. Provide sources with direct links so that we may verify your claims of degree authorization.

    " VAE is a the law of the landand all public and private universities must have this procedure available."

    - Provide proof and evidence

    "We are under the control of the Academie de Poitiers.

    - Provide proof and evidence...not links to pdf or doc files. Direct proof or contact information from the French ministry of education.


    Until you can provide evidence and direct verifiable proof, meaning website with contact information, of VAE Degree authorization, Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon is a degreemill and operating with the intent and purpose of deceiving the members of this forum and the consumers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  10. CDELAFAIDE

    CDELAFAIDE member

    De Sorbon is legal registered a& can grant degrees

    IF I UNDERSTAND WELL IN YOUR COUNTRY YOU ARE JUDGE GUILTY UNDER BEING PROVED INNOCENT. WE ARE A DIPLOMA MILL BECAUSE WE DO NOT PUT LINK TO SOME WEBSITE. (my god are you American?) Does Harvard put a link to its regional accreditation? No! then Harvard is a diploma mill

    Lets be serious! if we were an illegal diploma mill we would not be in business foir 5 years.


    For the legitimity of the institution please go to www.sorbon.fr/JournalOfficiel.jpg Sorry its jpg but it is the law of the land!

    For the VAE Please go to our legal page which cite the articles of the French Code of education:http://www.sorbon.fr/legalengl.html

    If you speak French go to the legifrance.gouv.fr and go to code de l'éducation and check VAE.

    You can also go to the Annuaire Officiel de l'Enseignement privé: Official Directory of Private French Education


    The fact that a vice Rector and Dean plus 4 Ph.D. graduate from the public Sorbonne joined recently our VAE juries will probably not change your biased attitude.

    We are guilty even if we prove our innocence...
     
  11. raristud

    raristud Member

    "Lets be serious! if we were an illegal diploma mill we would not be in business foir 5 years."

    - Then prove you are not an illegal diploma mill.

    "DIPLOMA MILL BECAUSE WE DO NOT PUT LINK TO SOME WEBSITE. (my god are you American?)

    -- Biased attitude? Is that so? How do you know I am an American? I asked for contact information or a link to a french government website. Like this one! http://www.vae.gouv.fr/

    Direct links and contact information from government sources so that we may contact someone from the French Ministry of Education and verify that Sorbon exists and that Sorbon is authorized to award VAE Degrees.

    Not links to documents from your website or an obscure website that has .info for it's domain name from a web hosting service from a PLEXUS-HOSTING.:D

    "Does Harvard put a link to its regional accreditation?"

    Yes.. they do

    Here: http://extension.dce.harvard.edu/2008-09/policies/transfer.jsp;jsessionid=BCGDFFBIOBPH

    and

    Here: http://extension.dce.harvard.edu/2008-09/about/

    Remember. Proof that sorbon is authorized to award VAE Degrees. This proof has to come directly from a government source. The proof has to include a posting of the government website and contact information.

    "WE ARE A DIPLOMA MILL BECAUSE WE DO NOT PUT LINK TO SOME WEBSITE."

    - Not a private website. A Government website from the French ministry of education that proves that Sorbon is authorized by the French Ministry of Education to award VAE DEGREES. Since you claim accreditation from the French Ministry of Education. Certainly there has to be a listing from the french ministry of education and contact information therof to verify that Sorbon is authorized to award VAE degrees.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Ecole_Superieure_Robert_de_Sorbon_criticized_when_it_is_accredited_by_Ministere_de_l%27Education_Nationale_as_Sorbon.fr_and_listed_in_Ministere_Officiel_-_ecoles_professionnelles_Vienne_86
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  12. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Actually, Harvard, and nearly every other legitimate school, does in fact say somewhere on their websites, usually somewhere in the admissions section, which regional accreditor accredits them.

    Additionally, the CHEA website allows anyone to look up the status of any school in the US accredited by any US DOEd-recognized accreditor and verify the status.

    And legitimate schools have no problem providing references to appropriate governmental authorities to verify their standing.

    By the way, I notice not another word was said about the document supposedly verifying Dr. Carson Kievman's involvement that conveniently didn't have any signature or other information to verify it's authenticity.

    It never ceases to amaze me; the pattern is always the same.

    -- The only schools we EVER get threats from are the unwonderfuls and blatantly fraudulent ones.

    -- Unwonderful school uses some variation of either "We'll sue you into oblivion" or "We don't want to sue you, and we don't want to threaten you, but we're going to threaten you anyway"

    -- We post said threat

    -- Said school (or, more precisely, generally the proprietor and single employee of said business masquerading as a school), if it's stupid enough, shows up to respond, and in nearly every case, quickly descends into classic millspeak and uses any of a dozen tried-and-true-but-ineffective ways to try to defend their unwonderful institution.

    -- Through the millspeak-filled postings and shucking-and-jiving, the school unwittingly confirms what everyone had already thought, but wasn't certain of

    -- Eventually, the school gives up and goes away, but not before creating a tremendous amount of visibility exposing the unwonderful nature of the school, which is preserved permanently in the Degreeinfo message archive.

    You'd think these operators would learn, and would simply leave well enough alone, but I guess nobody's written that chapter in the "how to run a fraudulent school for dummies" home-study course yet.
     
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    I will be interested to see a list of these people that were granted these prestigious degrees.

    If the PhDs are legal and prestigious, I would think that these people wouldn't mind to share where they work and who they are. Most legit Universities make public the list of their graduates so I would think that a good way to verify your information is by providing names with places where they work. If these people are proud of their accomplishments, I'm sure they wouldn't mind to have their names listed on your web site.

    It would also be a good thing if you share name of PhD graduates that have been accepted as tenure faculty members at other accredited Universities. If Sorbon PhDs are prestigious and accepted global wise, I'm sure you can provide some names of alumni that hold faculty positions around the globe.

    It would also be good to see how many of your master's graduates were accepted for further study (PhD) at other accredited Universities. If Sorbon degrees are prestigious and recognized, I'm sure you can share some graduates that were accepted for further study at other graduate schools.

    If PhD at Sorbon are not good to become faculty members and Master's cannot be used for PhD admission. What is the use of a graduate degree from Sorbon?
     
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Well, I have to tell you all that I just sent CDELAFAIDE on vacation for a month. I suppose I could have banned him permanently but it's so fun (and easy) poking holes in his story that I didn't want to deprive you all of that amusement forever. At the same time, his clear refusal to address the multiple registrations issue required some action. In a month he'll be back and we can all play this game again.
     
  15. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    The "Mastaire" degree. And a hat.

    In case anyone really misses the Sorbon troll(s) while they are on vacation, they have started in, with the same fine messages, at degreediscussion.com

    I notice on their site that the degrees awarded include (and I quote):
    Associate
    Bachelor
    Mastaire
    Ph.D.

    #1, 2, and 4 are in English. What the heck is #3? Inspector Clouzeau?

    And in case anyone wants a Robert de Sorbon hat, here's the source:
    http://www.sorbon.fr/boutiqueengl.html

    [​IMG]
     
  16. naios

    naios New Member

    I noticed on the website that there is a listing of enseignants (teachers/professors). Maybe a discussion with one of them about their hard work there would help clear things up.
     
  17. raristud

    raristud Member

    I tracked down one of the "vae juries" and he said that he has no involvement with sorbon and denied never having taught there. I invited the professor to join degreeinfo.com and post. He has yet to respond.
     
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator


    With any luck, such a hat might be worth some money someday. Like an "Antiques Roadshow" thing.
    (meaning the entity will not exist and the hat will be just a curiosity)
    [ I know, I know, if you have to explain the joke it means it's a bad joke ]
     
  19. bmills072200

    bmills072200 New Member

    If only the "school" had live web chats...
     
  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Hey, I know that there's some history here but I'd like to point out that our cousins over on degreediscussion are giving our French friends some friction.
    Thanks for that, guys. 始终忠实地
     

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