doctorate w/o masters

If you read Paul C's original post, he makes a statement that PhD programs 'fold in' the Masters work. My response was that his scenario wasn't the case with B&M Ph.D programs for AACSB business schools. I made that statement because someone could read Paul C's statement and assume that you could cut off significant hours from a Ph.D. with an appropriate Masters. In fact, most business Ph.D programs that are B&M state explicitly that this is not the case.

Rather than looking at it as thread drift, I viewed it as adding to the richness of conversation. Lots of people come here looking for help, and while reading a post is no excuse for not doing your own homework, I don't think it hurts to add some perspective to a point that could be confusing to others.

My $0.02

 

I can't comment on the business programs, not my area of expertise or experience. But, I can say that my personal experience, I recently discussed a doctoral program in Education, with (several but specifically one) DETC school, and they were willing to admit me to their program for two reasons; first I have a Masters degree in Administration (Central Michigan) and second I had completed 18 semester hours in Education (NC A&T State University). I am also in abd status on an RA doctorate I am finishing now, and was looking for that next challenge in life. The abbreviated version of the conversations was basically you need either a masters degree in the doctoral discipline, equilivant post graduate work, or the program you complete will have sufficient post graduate hours to meet the doctoral graduation requirements.

The point is, with or without a MS/MA, you will need to complete a specified number of post graduate hours to earn a doctorate in most programs, regardless of DETC or RA status, or B/M or all online. There may be exceptions but that seems to be the general rule in programs I am familiar/have experience with, which include areas like History, Education, Healthcare Adm, etc.

The conversations reminded me of the old discussions regarding an Associates Degree/Bachelors Degree. Some people have a bachelors degree with an AAS as well, and some do not but all have completed at least 120 hours of undergraduate credit. If you got the first 60 of your 120 in an AAS program, fine, if not, you still need to complete the 120 hours regardless.

Good luck.

 

That's a great example.

The difference between a Ph.D. and a Master's program is like the difference between an Associate of Applied Science and a Bachelor's program. They're designed for different things. In many cases, a Master's is considered terminal in that it is not structured around research.

An Associate of Applied Science is a specialty degree. Its intent is to certify you as an expert in something. It doesn't feed into a Bachelors as much as it competes with one to some degree.

An Associate of Arts and Sciences is usually the 1st two years of a Bachelors program.

Wouldn't a Masters, by its definition, be more akin to the Associate of Applied Science thant the Associate of Arts and Sciences?

 

No, the masters degree (or first 30 credits of a PhD if you only have a bachelors degree) sets the stage for later research. They create the foundation for your later work. An AAS usually has 15 general ed credits and 45 "focused" credits. An AA has 45 gen ed and 15 electives.

 

Again, this may be the case in online programs or in fields outside of business.

As an example, this is taken from the Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago:

Q. I already have an MBA/Master's Degree. Will this reduce my time to the PhD Degree?
A. No. Prior coursework at the graduate level will not reduce your time to degree. There is very little overlap between MBA and PhD level coursework (even if your MBA was earned from Chicago Booth).

You could almost google that blurb minus Booth School and you'll see it pop up again and again and again.

At B&M schools in business programs, there is a difference between Masters or MBA level work and PhD work. I have no idea about other fields.

Again, I'm just adding this because people use this site as a reference. IF your goal is MBA then PhD, you're not going to cut your time down.

 

It depends . . .

Guys, I'm not trying to sound like a politician, but in a way both of you are correct. And, I am not qualified to fully discuss the difference between the AAS and the AA, but my primary point was how you finished the first 60 of a bachelors degree can be generally in an associates program or not, regardless you have to finish the first 60 somewhere.

I'll also add, that for many, a masters degree is their terminal degree insomuch as they will work as the experts in their given field in their given endeavor. My wife has a MSN and is responsible for clinical education for a large, non-academic healthcare system.

This healthcare system is large and has substantial patient volumes, but at the executive level there is no support for taking on more of an academic model. As such, the leadership for the center is filled with the MHA's, MBA's of the world with a few MEd's and MSNs sprinkled in for good measure but that is it. They generally don't have a lot of love for doctorates for those outside the stethoscope world (MD/DO)!

I work in the world of academia and my masters was primarily seen as a warm up for my doctoral program. It did set the stage and help me prepare for the amount of writing I needed to do where I am now. Those with a masters where I work either are on their way to a doctorate or staff.

 

Again, very good points. Does a Masters make a candidate more attractive to a doctoral program? I'm sure it does.

I'm just cautioning people that the B&M world in business works differently. Schools like NCU basically take all of the credits from an MBA and apply them. And that's fine for what it is. But other schools don't work like that. Maybe you can shave off 6-9 in certain places but to earn 36-42 credits in order to save 6-9 is counter-productive.

Another odd distinction is that I'm seeing more and more B&M schools (and I'm talking 1st tier national and 1st tier masters) hire undergrad instructors with a Master's degree and experience. Just as the online world moves to the doctorate, the onground world is moving to a more practitioner-oriented approach for undergrads. I think it's a response to the expense of tenure track positions but it is what it is.

 

But, it should be noted that some programs, Harvard for instance, will add additional coursework requirements if you don't have an MBA. Depending on perspective one might view that as decreasing the amount of time and/or work required.

Harvard DBA Management

"V. MBA Course Requirement
Students who do not have an MBA are required to take either the first semester of the MBA program or five second-year MBA courses, including one course with a general management focus.

Students who have a non-HBS MBA are required to take one approved second-year MBA course in general management."

In addition an MBA provides good preparation for Stanford's (and others) PhD.

Regardless, I agree with your post.

 

This is not true. I used an MBA to cut down time from a PhD. As others pointed out however, it depends. Where you completed your degree, which courses you took, and the school you are applying to, the members on your committee, all make a difference.

 

But, as has been mentioned are you actually cutting down the PhD time? My MBA was 45 credits of which only a portion is counted towards a doctorate. So if you add the MBA credits and time to completion it probably makes more sense to apply with a bachelors and only complete the coursework required to meet doctoral admission.

Regardless, I would rather have the MBA than not.

 

I just want to jump back to a point we can all agree on (I think). Going for a PhD without a masters will not cut down on the number of credits required. In the end, X number of credits is required no matter where you start.

A BS plus 51 credit will not get to a PhD but a masters (assuming the transfer credits are accepted in a PhD program) plus 51 will. While you run the risk of taking extra classes if you earn a masters, a BS to PhD is not a "shortcut".

 

I have no reason to doubt your experience but this is taken from the Warrington school of business at http://www.cba.ufl.edu/fsoa/docs/phd_FAQ.pdf

Does a master's degree reduce the time required for the PhD program?
No. The required course work in the PhD program rarely overlaps with courses from a professional master's degree program.

Is a master's degree required for admission to the PhD program?
No.

Maybe these programs were more flexible 5 years ago or whenever you graduated than they are now. Maybe they waive things for promising students.

But again, I caution people to do their research on the actual sites and not rely on anectdotal evidence. I'm not guessing when I say these programs explicitly state that there is not time cut from the program by earning a Master's. If the programs' own FAQs can't be trusted, that's another matter entirely.

 

Very true but earning a Masters before applying for a residential PhD will result in 'excess' credits. For cost-conscious folks, that's something that should be considered.

 

In my case I was allowed to apply 30 credits from my MBA to the PhD. That is the max the university allows. This saved me about a year and a half of full-time on-campus courses.

You are right though, if PhD is your ultimate goal, no need to waste time with the MBA. Go ahead and apply!

 

You are comparing apples an oranges. The FAQ you are reading from is for their Accounting PhD, which is a pretty specialized program and very quantitative. An MBA or other professional masters would not count towards this.

However, if you applied to their PhD in Management, you would see this (second paragraph):
http://www.cba.ufl.edu/docs/Phd_Program_Requirements.pdf

It is not that FAQs can't be trusted, you just really have got to understand the department you are reading about.

 

Sweet. I've been corrected.

Still, I think the UFL program in management is a little different than most. That blurb I quoted from the accounting department is found on many general pages of PhD programs I've researched.

Nice to know I was wrong on this one when it comes to FL.

 

I offered two examples of business doctoral programs (SIU and IU) where Masters credits can be used to reduce the total course related credits in their PhD programs. It has certainly been shown by DBA_Curious that there are some number of B&M programs that will not accept any previous MS work. There are also other institutions with business doctoral programs that will accept the MS credits (or some number of them). Enough variations to suggest there are many variations and even some that look like some online programs.

 

MBA but no Bachelor

You may find this interesting: I have an MBA but never completed a Bachelor's degree. Yes, UK universities (including Manchester School of Business) admit some people to the MBA program if they have extensive experience at a managerial level, even if they don't have a Bachelor's degree. To be honest with you, I'm still not sure if I made the right decision. But I'm a person who never looks back.

Now I'm considering pursuing a DBA. I'm not sure, though, how US universities will look at my case. UoP told me they cannot admit me into their PhD program. Capella and NCU, where I'm taking a course as a non-degree learner, told me they'll have to look at my degree and transcripts and may accept me.

By the way, this was my first post here. I'm glad to be part of this community.
______________________
MBA, University of Wales

 

This is going to be interesting. Let us know what reactions you get. Are you going only for US DBAs or taking a look at the ones offered in the Uk as well?

 

The same practice is followed by Australian schools and even some Canadian Schools. In the case of Australia, you can follow a DBA with an MBA but not a PhD as the latter one requires an honors degree or M.Phil.

In the case of the US, I would think that this depends on the policy of the school and how flexible they are.