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  1. #17
    heirophant is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    If Kaepernick had something to offer NFL teams, he'd have a job by now.
    Robert Griffin ('RG3') isn't signed either. Both of them are very similar quarterbacks in football terms, even if RG3 doesn't have the political baggage.

    His talent level just isn't even close enough to offset the distractions he'd bring
    My belief is that Kaepernick still sees himself as a starter. He doesn't want to be a backup, he demands a big contract and at least an opportunity to compete for the starting spot on any team he signs with. So any team that signs him will be signing a quarterback controversy. As soon as their current starter struggles, the demands to 'Put in Kaepernick!' will start.

    and the fury from a lot of the fans.
    Sure, the political angle is just piled on top of the football angle. Teams know that if they sign Kaepernick, the "news" media will be in their faces day and night, looking for any signs of racial/political tensions (real or imagined) in the locker room and between the players and the coaches.

    And players often seem to forget that directly or indirectly, it's the fans who pay their salaries. Owners do get a lot of their money from the NFL's TV contracts, but those TV contracts will only be lucrative if lots of eyeballs tune in. Football isn't just about player pride and solidarity in the locker room, it's about pleasing as many fans as possible.

    That's why politicizing the game is such a terrible move. Football needs to be fun and enjoyable for as many people as possible. People aren't obligated to tune in or buy tickets. When pro football stops being fun, people will start walking away. We might already be seeing that.

  2. #18
    me again is online now Registered User
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    Lightbulb Sportsfan says: "If he kneels, then I walk [out]"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    ... and the fury from a lot of the fans...

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    Teams know that if they sign Kaepernick, the "news" media will be in their faces day and night, looking for any signs of racial/political tensions (real or imagined) in the locker room and between the players and the coaches.

    And players often seem to forget that directly or indirectly, it's the fans who pay their salaries.

    That's why politicizing the game is such a terrible move. Football needs to be fun and enjoyable.
    Yes, sports has been hijacked by politics in a way that the United States has never seen.

    In future sports venues with other countries, the foreigners will stand for their national anthems. It will be very strange if United States athletes kneel when the U.S. national anthem is played. The world will be watching.
    Last edited by me again; 10-10-2017 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Sports has been hijacked by politics.
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  3. #19
    me again is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abner View Post
    What a moron!
    Abner, is your comment academic or edifying or does it help anyone in a constructive way? Are you building up your countrymen or tearing them down? (Matthew 5:37)
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  4. #20
    heirophant is online now Registered User
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    ESPN's Adam Schefter is reporting that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell sent a letter earlier today to NFL club presidents that begins with this paragraph:

    "We live in a country that can feel very divided. Sports, and especially the NFL, brings people together and lets them set aside those divisions, at least for a few hours. The current dispute over the National Anthem is threatening to erode the unifying power of our game, and is now dividing us, and our players, from many fans across the country."

    So the league is apparently recognizing that they are losing many of their fans. Further down in the letter, Goodell says:

    "Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the National Anthem. It is an important moment in our game. We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us. We also care deeply about our players and respect their opinions and concerns about critical social issues. The controversy over the Anthem is a barrier to having honest conversations and making real progress on the underlying issues. We need to move past this controversy, and we want to do that together with our players."

    It's pretty clear that the league office feels caught between many fans on one side and many of the black players on the other. They can't risk further alienating either side. So what do they propose to do?

    "Building on many discussions with clubs and players, we have worked to develop a plan that we will review with you at next week's League meeting. This would include such elements as an in-season platform to promote the work of our players on these core issues, and that will help to promote positive change in our country."

    It sounds to me like they are going to try to please the players by doing something to promote football teams becoming more like political activist organizations "promoting positive change in our country" (with 'positive' defined by the Kaepernick-ists). But to avoid losing the fans, they are going to try to move the political shit off the field during games.

    It isn't clear whether any rule changes to enforce standing during the national anthem are contemplated. Goodell says that he's been in discussions during the last week with the NFLPA and these proposals presumably reflect that.

    https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefte...46218148764153
    Last edited by heirophant; 10-10-2017 at 01:21 PM.

  5. #21
    decimon is online now Registered User
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    Money talks, bullsquat walks.

    I don't know why they play the anthem at sporting events. Why not before an opera?

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  7. #22
    me again is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by decimon View Post
    Money talks, bullsquat walks.

    I don't know why they play the anthem at sporting events. Why not before an opera?
    That's a good point, but it appears to be a global phenomenon that is not unique to the United States. When, where, why and how did the tradition start? It seems to be correlated to national pride in every nation.
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  8. #23
    sanantone is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    1. Athletes kneel.
    2. Vice President Pence walks.
    3. Sports fans protest by not buying tickets.

    It's the American way and it has nothing to do with "believing that Black Americans should be ignored." That's apples and oranges. What you see unfolding is a form of protest -- to include people walking out of sports events or refusing to buy tickets. It's the way the system should work.



    There is unequivocally an issue with prejudice and reverse-prejudice in the United States. Anyone who will not admit it is either sheltered, blind or is a liar. It's different for everyone. There are some rich sheltered White people who have genuinely not seen or experienced prejudice. They are genuinely blind to it because they've been sheltered from it, due to their elevated socioeconomic insulation. Conversely, there are people of color who hate Whites, simply because they are White. What is the answer?

    Communists take advantage of deep seated hatred that is rooted in culture. Communists foment cultural hatreds by trying to create uprisings (antifa), revolts and chaos. It is in and from chaos that Communists seek to bring order -- and to rise in governmental power. It's a classic demonic strategy that is as old as the ancient serpent. Divide and then conquer.
    Here you go. Everything is about communism and the "alt-left." Trump is more divisive than any small "communist" movement. It's how he won the electoral college without winning the popular vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    I've probably been paying attention to this longer than you have, since I follow the San Francisco 49ers. Here's what Colin Kaepernick told the press then he first refused to stand for the national anthem:

    "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

    That's very clear, a rejection not only of the flag and the national anthem, but of the country for which they stand.

    Other players have subsequently said that the fact that they are celebrities and have the media pointed at them gives them a big stage, and they wanted to make use of the attention they receive to make a statement.

    And most recently, the standing but linking arms thing seems to symbolize that 'We are a band of brothers out there on the field, we fight and defend each other, and none of this will divide us'.

    Vice President Pence used his celebrity, the fact that media was trained on him, to make his own statement. Because of his position, he represents the United States of America.

    The difference between his statement and that of the players, is that his was made on behalf of a common identity, a common loyalty that should unite us, something that everyone (black, white, rich, poor, Republican, Democrat) supposedly share in common. Playing the national anthem at football games symbolizes that even though there's going to be a little war out there on the football field this afternoon, it's just a game and in real life we are all members of a bigger team.
    That's not really the same as saying "f*** America." It is true that we cannot depend on the government or the criminal justice system to do anything. Pence does not represent America; he represents Americans who agree with him. If he cared to represent us all, then he would at least listen to the other side. Considering how many people he angered by his costly stunt, he is only contributing to the division just like our president. A protest against racism shouldn't even be a divisive issue. All Americans should be united by the protest against racism, but they're not. A protest against racism shouldn't even be controversial; it's an embarrassment that it is.
    Last edited by sanantone; 10-10-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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  9. #24
    sanantone is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhp View Post
    I saw an other poll that showed that 83% of black Americans have only a vague idea what the kneeling is all about.

    So my 83 beats your 82. :D

    By setting up a response of "you're not listening" it is an immediate short circuit to no discourse.
    Here's my source. I would like to see yours.

    CNN poll: Americans split on anthem protests - CNNPolitics
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  10. #25
    Bruce is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    Robert Griffin ('RG3') isn't signed either. Both of them are very similar quarterbacks in football terms, even if RG3 doesn't have the political baggage.
    He brings baggage, just an entirely other kind. If you recall, he was reprimanded for wearing a shirt to a press conference that mentioned God, and told to turn it inside-out. As we know from Tim Tebow, overt expressions of faith are verboten in the NFL.

    He also had that devastating knee injury a few years ago, so I think one of his biggest assets coming out of college (his mobility) has been severely hampered. I actually like him as a player and a person, I'd love to see him get another chance somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    My belief is that Kaepernick still sees himself as a starter. He doesn't want to be a backup, he demands a big contract and at least an opportunity to compete for the starting spot on any team he signs with. So any team that signs him will be signing a quarterback controversy. As soon as their current starter struggles, the demands to 'Put in Kaepernick!' will start.
    Exactly! If he had the talent & pedigree of Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (in his prime), there would be teams lining up to sign him, and those fan bases would be willing to tolerate a lot. As it is, Kaepernick just isn't worth the distractions he'd bring.

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    That's why politicizing the game is such a terrible move. Football needs to be fun and enjoyable for as many people as possible. People aren't obligated to tune in or buy tickets. When pro football stops being fun, people will start walking away. We might already be seeing that.
    Bingo.

    I've been an NFL fan since I can remember, and this nonsense has completely turned me off. I realize that I won't bring the NFL to their knees without my meager revenue dollars, but it's not even a political statement, they've just allowed this controversy to fester to the point that I don't even enjoy it anymore. Now, I watch my football on Saturdays (college), and watch hockey or something else on Sundays.

    And I really don't feel as though I'm missing anything.
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  11. #26
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    He also had that devastating knee injury a few years ago, so I think one of his biggest assets coming out of college (his mobility) has been severely hampered. I actually like him as a player and a person, I'd love to see him get another chance somewhere.
    Oh god, that was awful. And he shouldn't have been on the field at all at that point, it was a shitty decision by Mike Shanahan.
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  12. #27
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    It reminds of the time B4 posted a youtube video of Obama supposedly saying he like pussy and ribs! Fake news! Stop watching so much youtube you guys, can't you tell when a video has been edited? Sheesh!
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  13. #28
    me again is online now Registered User
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    Thumbs down CBS Fake News

    Quote Originally Posted by Abner View Post
    Fake news! Stop watching so much youtube you guys, can't you tell when a video has been edited? Sheesh!
    Abner, you are right: the FAKE NEWS came from CBS and you can hear the CBS reporter say it here:
    CBS caught red handed

    CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.
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  15. #29
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Abner, you are right: the FAKE NEWS came from CBS and you can hear the CBS reporter say it here:
    CBS caught red handed

    CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.
    Fake news is fake news. Why do you guys fall for it when it suits you? You got caught spreading fake newsf just a day or two ago. STOP watching youtube for your news. Just listen to your twitter/pussy grabber in chief.
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  16. #30
    sanantone is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abner View Post
    Fake news is fake news. Why do you guys fall for it when it suits you? You got caught spreading fake newsf just a day or two ago. STOP watching youtube for your news. Just listen to your twitter/pussy grabber in chief.
    Trump has spread fake news 1,300 times since he's been in office. He is the main source of fake news along with the Russian bot accounts on Twitter. 30% of Trump's followers on Twitter aren't real people.

    Notice how hardly anyone was kneeling before Trump opened his weirdly small mouth? A bunch of football players didn't start kneeling because of something antifa or the "communists" said. They started kneeling after our highly divisive president called Kaerpernick a son of a bitch. The white supremacist who murdered that woman in Charlottesville...he's not a son of a bitch. Trump is not a son of a bitch for insulting the POWs who were brave enough to fight while Trump avoided the draft multiple times. No, you're only a son of a bitch when you quietly kneel during the national anthem. This is just fake outrage. Trump's cult members don't really care about veterans' feelings. If they actually cared, they wouldn't have voted for and continued to support Trump after he disrespected the thousands of POWs throughout U.S. history .
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  17. #31
    me again is online now Registered User
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    Lightbulb Marxism goal: Creating order out of chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by sanantone View Post
    Trump's cult members don't really care about veterans' feelings...
    sanantone, Trump supporters ARE vets. That's what makes your statement so counter-intuitive. Conversely, the athletes who are kneeling are not vets and have never seen real combat. The athletes who are vets -- and who have lost buddies in combat -- are not kneeling in political protest when the national anthem is played.

    This whole scenario is a derivative of alt.left politics (a root of Marxism). The goal of Marxism is to (1) first, sow seeds of cultural angst to foment social disorder and (2) second, create order out of chaos. But first, Marxism must create chaos before they can claim to restore order. The Marxists ideology has been fully operative in the United States since the 1920s and what you are seeing is the tip of the iceberg. You can see a full documentary here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGOPJwf78wg
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  18. #32
    heirophant is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    I've been an NFL fan since I can remember
    Me too.

    and this nonsense has completely turned me off.
    I still find myself watching games if they interest me. But I no longer watch every game on TV on Sunday just because it's football and it's on. I've never watched those panel and analysis shows on ESPN or the NFL network, so that's no loss.

    I've found that the ladies were maybe on to something when they would go out shopping while the guys watched football. I've recently found myself at cafes on Sunday afternoons and visiting museums or things like that, and enjoyed it. I used to look forward to Thursday and Monday night games, and now I can't even tell you who is playing.

    I realize that I won't bring the NFL to their knees without my meager revenue dollars, but it's not even a political statement, they've just allowed this controversy to fester to the point that I don't even enjoy it anymore. Now, I watch my football on Saturdays (college), and watch hockey or something else on Sundays.
    I like college football more than pro football. It's often more exciting since the play-calling is more wide-open. It's probably true that the quality of play is lower, but college QB's still tend to complete as many passes as the pros. Running backs pick up as many yards. It basically looks the same to my spectator's eye. And there's the whole college spirit thing that I like, the excitement after huge upsets like when Washington State recently knocked off then-#4 USC (biggest thing to happen in Pullman WA since forever) and that legendary Boise State victory over Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. I like cheering for the underdogs in college games, cheering for the giant-killer teams when they play the schools that get all the adoring media attention.

    And yes, I'm a San Jose Sharks fan (they face-planted in their first few games this season) and have been following Edmonton (they started disappointingly too which is much more surprising). We'll see.

    I find that I can live perfectly fine without watching pro football whenever it's on TV, just because it's pro football on TV. Sorry NFL. I still like your product, just not as much. Not so much that I'll schedule my life around it.

    The NFL is likely to find that their viewership and ticket sales don't rebound 100% even if they put this political stuff behind them, because people like me have found that there really are other things to do on Sundays.

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