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  1. #1
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    The state of the white supremacy and neo-Nazi groups in the US

    The state of the white supremacy and neo-Nazi groups in the US - ABC News

    "The SPLC breaks down the groups by category, noting that there were 99 neo-Nazi groups, 130 outposts of the Ku Klux Klan, 43 neo-Confederate groups, 78 racist skinhead groups and 100 white nationalist groups. Various other groups – those classified as anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, Christian identity or general hate groups – could also share some ideology with white supremacist or white nationalist groups."

    I especially hate those Christian identity fuckers! Some Christians.
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  2. #2
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    I hate to say this because I wish it weren't true, but SPLC doesn't make unbiased determinations. I would want to go through any list of theirs before I accepted it.
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  3. #3
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    I hate to say this because I wish it weren't true, but SPLC doesn't make unbiased determinations. I would want to go through any list of theirs before I accepted it.
    All you have to do is look at Charlostville. The alt reich is alive and well, and they are flourishing under Trump. Just sayin. Trump is having his fun now, but in the future, the Reps will be labeled as racists which will be a handy tool for the Dems in the upcoming elections.
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  4. #4
    03310151 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abner View Post
    but in the future, the Reps will be labeled as racists which will be a handy tool for the Dems in the upcoming elections.

    Holy shit.

  5. #5
    03310151 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    I hate to say this because I wish it weren't true, but SPLC doesn't make unbiased determinations. I would want to go through any list of theirs before I accepted it.
    They're one of the most profitable hate groups out there.

    Sam Harris thinks the SPLC is crazy;
    https://twitter.com/SamHarrisOrg/sta...-hate-group%2F


    When you've lost Sam Harris
    Last edited by 03310151; 09-19-2017 at 01:29 PM.

  6. #6
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    I hate to say this because I wish it weren't true, but SPLC doesn't make unbiased determinations. I would want to go through any list of theirs before I accepted it.
    Do you have an alternative list that will debunk SPLC's list?
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  7. #7
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    The SPLC breaks down the groups by category, noting that there were 99 neo-Nazi groups, 130 outposts of the Ku Klux Klan, 43 neo-Confederate groups, 78 racist skinhead groups and 100 white nationalist groups. Various other groups – those classified as anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, Christian identity or general hate groups – could also share some ideology with white supremacist or white nationalist groups.

    The overall number of U.S. hate groups jumped about 17 percent in 2016 from 784 in 2014, according to SPLC research.
    Soooooo... where's the actual "list" itself? Did I miss an obvious link somewhere? Can't seem to find it in Google either. Derp on me.

    Unfortunately, that means I can't answer the most important questions in my mind:

    1) How many people are in these groups?

    2) Was group overlap accounted for?

    3) What does "Christian identity" group mean? I identify as a Christian and am a part of a group. I guess that means my group is counted on the list?

    I assume that "groups" are defined as 3 or more people. Let's say we have 10 people. We can, for example, break it into: 1 group of 10, 10 groups of 5, 3 groups of 7, 6 groups of 4 groups of 4.

    OMG we have 24 groups!!!!

    Except that there's still only 10 people total between them, just divided different ways. Still, that's putting it even more complicatedly than it needs to be. An aggregation of 10 people can form limitless groups of 10, presuming that unique membership is not necessary to each group. It says nothing about the rise in membership or influence of the groups.

    I'm also well past the point where I trust any media source, at all, in its reporting of the nature of a group. All you have to do to be labeled a "white supremacist" these days is to support voter ID laws or to think that college entrance should be based on merit. It's completely absurd.

    BTW, according to SPLC, there are 196 black separatist groups in the United States as of 2016. A number that has steadily risen over the years.
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  9. #8
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    Soooooo... where's the actual "list" itself?

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...te-groups-2016

  10. #9
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    Soooooo... where's the actual "list" itself? Did I miss an obvious link somewhere? Can't seem to find it in Google either. Derp on me.

    Unfortunately, that means I can't answer the most important questions in my mind:

    1) How many people are in these groups?

    2) Was group overlap accounted for?

    3) What does "Christian identity" group mean? I identify as a Christian and am a part of a group. I guess that means my group is counted on the list?

    I assume that "groups" are defined as 3 or more people. Let's say we have 10 people. We can, for example, break it into: 1 group of 10, 10 groups of 5, 3 groups of 7, 6 groups of 4 groups of 4.

    OMG we have 24 groups!!!!

    Except that there's still only 10 people total between them, just divided different ways. Still, that's putting it even more complicatedly than it needs to be. An aggregation of 10 people can form limitless groups of 10, presuming that unique membership is not necessary to each group. It says nothing about the rise in membership or influence of the groups.

    I'm also well past the point where I trust any media source, at all, in its reporting of the nature of a group. All you have to do to be labeled a "white supremacist" these days is to support voter ID laws or to think that college entrance should be based on merit. It's completely absurd.

    BTW, according to SPLC, there are 196 black separatist groups in the United States as of 2016. A number that has steadily risen over the years.
    Trust me, you don't want to be included in the "Christian Identity" movement list. Those guys believe that anyone who is not white are "mud people", amongst other such twisted ideas. See here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

    "Christian Identity dictates that all non-whites (people not of wholly European descent) on the planet will either be exterminated or enslaved (Dominion Theology) in order to serve the White race in the new Heavenly Kingdom on Earth under the reign of Jesus Christ.[citation needed] Its doctrine states that only "Adamic" (white people) can achieve salvation and paradise. Many adherents are Millennialist"

    They are a bunch of degenerates!
    Last edited by Abner; 09-19-2017 at 06:54 PM.
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  11. #10
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    Thanks!

    So, as I suspected, SPLC doesn't specify how many members the groups actually have, which lends to the misrepresentation of the data laid out in the article linked to in the OP.

    Groups listed in several other categories — Ku Klux Klan, neo-Confederate, neo-Nazi, racist Skinhead, and Christian Identity — could also be described as white nationalist.
    Yes. All of these groups are white nationalist in ideology, even though there is a separate category for white nationalist groups, and there is no data on how many KKK members are also neo-Confederates, how many racist Skinheads are also neo-Nazi, etc. Also, there is yet ANOTHER category for "general hate groups". These numbers tell us nothing at all without more information.

    What we do know is that these people have failed to garner much political and social influence, despite their extreme desire to do so and willingness to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abner
    Trust me, you don't want to be included in the "Christian Identity" movement list. Those guys believe that anyone who is not white are "mud people", amongst other such twisted ideas. See here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

    "Christian Identity dictates that all non-whites (people not of wholly European descent) on the planet will either be exterminated or enslaved (Dominion Theology) in order to serve the White race in the new Heavenly Kingdom on Earth under the reign of Jesus Christ.[citation needed] Its doctrine states that only "Adamic" (white people) can achieve salvation and paradise. Many adherents are Millennialist"

    They are a bunch of degenerates!
    Well then, color me ignorant. I had no idea. I partially blame the editor of the original article for leaving "identity" uncapitalized. Cop out? Sure, maybe, but I PROMISE I would have Googled it if I knew that "Christian Identity" was a name for something instead of just a label thrown in there without defining or explaining even in the least bit.
    BA, Social Sciences ---- The University Formerly Known As Thomas Edison State College

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  12. #11
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    Thanks!

    So, as I suspected, SPLC doesn't specify how many members the groups actually have, which lends to the misrepresentation of the data laid out in the article linked to in the OP.



    Yes. All of these groups are white nationalist in ideology, even though there is a separate category for white nationalist groups, and there is no data on how many KKK members are also neo-Confederates, how many racist Skinheads are also neo-Nazi, etc. Also, there is yet ANOTHER category for "general hate groups". These numbers tell us nothing at all without more information.

    What we do know is that these people have failed to garner much political and social influence, despite their extreme desire to do so and willingness to act.
    I guess you missed all the press about alt-Right and their rising influence, especially after a certain someone started pandering to them. But it is true, even now white extremists are, collectively, a small minority. It's just interesting to note no one was asking your legitimate questions when people lose their shit over Antifa, almost certainly a smaller group. After all, various "KKK"s are rumps of one of the biggest terrorist groups this country ever knew, and some form of Confederate ideology is pretty widespread in the South.
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  13. #12
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    I guess you missed all the press about alt-Right and their rising influence, especially after a certain someone started pandering to them. But it is true, even now white extremists are, collectively, a small minority. It's just interesting to note no one was asking your legitimate questions when people lose their shit over Antifa, almost certainly a smaller group. After all, various "KKK"s are rumps of one of the biggest terrorist groups this country ever knew, and some form of Confederate ideology is pretty widespread in the South.
    Alt.right means different things to different people, but unlike the KKK, it is not a formal group to which ones claim membership. It is an adjective, like white nationalist, that also doubles as it's own "ism" type noun. Is the alt.right really growing in influence, or are a growing number of people applying the same label to describe their pre-existing ideologies? It's like saying saying there is a growing proportion of the population that is autistic, when the "growth" only occurs in number of diagnoses rather than actual instance.

    The analogy is imperfect, however, because at least there is a general professional consensus as to what autism actually is. 9/10s of psychologists might agree on what autism is, but just you try to get 9/10s of anyone to agree on what alt.right is.
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  14. #13
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    Alt.right means different things to different people, but unlike the KKK, it is not a formal group to which ones claim membership. It is an adjective, like white nationalist, that also doubles as it's own "ism" type noun. Is the alt.right really growing in influence, or are a growing number of people applying the same label to describe their pre-existing ideologies? It's like saying saying there is a growing proportion of the population that is autistic, when the "growth" only occurs in number of diagnoses rather than actual instance.
    You can say that Alt-right folks (bulk of identifiable members of which are Internet trolls in places like 4chan or Breibart discussion section) are not so much growing in numbers as getting emboldened to come out. Which is at least as bad. And, again, exactly the same is true about Antifa (except their coverage is almost entirely trumped up), yet no one makes this argument. Even though you only need like two dozen guys to commit/stage their recent outrages.
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    jhp
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