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  1. #33
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Regardless of whether a person believes Donald Jr. to be a naïve innocent or a immoral conspirator...

    Conspirator in what?

  2. #34
    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Regardless of whether a person believes Donald Jr. to be a naïve innocent or a immoral conspirator
    Probably something in-between. But Decimon's point still stands: In order for there to be a "conspiracy", there has to be an underlying crime.

    Doing "opposition research" on political opposents isn't a crime. Receiving what Stanislav calls "kompromat" isn't a crime. Even if the political opponents are democrats and even if the opponent is Hillary. The DNC was doing it, "colluding" with the Ukrainian embassy and the oddly-named Ms. Chalupa, to say nothing of joining some "never Trumper" Republicans in paying Mr. Steele (sounds like a name of a TV spy) in the UK to produce his bizarre "golden showers" dossier. The mainstream media have made it their business to do non-stop opposition research on every tiny aspect of the Trump administration, in hopes of unearthing some juicy 'kompromat' that they can use to subvert the elected US government. Those things are certainly crude and they are dirty, they are being done with a viciousness and a fanaticism never before seen in US politics, but are they illegal?

    there is one thing that is undeniable. That is that the list of issues/incidents on Robert Mueller's investigative agenda continues to grow. This is exactly the sort of thing that he was asked to investigate and so it is now added to an already long list of questions/allegations that he and his group have to work through.
    So you're admitting that Mueller is the democrats' open-ended fishing-expedition?

    Look, the only obvious crime that we've really seen so far (apart from Hillary's server, the pay-to-play payments allegedly made by foreign governments to the Clinton foundation and all of that) is the flood of ostensible leaks, including what is purported to be national security information, that's supposedly being directed by unpatriotic democrats in the federal civil service to the left-media. The "highly placed sources" that the New York Times and the Washington Post always refuse to name. The secret CIA and NSA files that walk out the door and end up on Wikileaks. Assuming that the information is real, the people responsible for that kind of shit need to be identified, arrested and sentenced to long prison terms (or even death). If the information isn't real, then that would satisfy the legal definition of 'collusion', individuals working together to commit fraud against third parties (the American voters in this case).

    That's where the investigations should focus.

    This is important because as long as this investigation is happening it will create a cloud over the Trump presidency and create a huge distraction away from whatever his legislative agenda might include (you know, that wall he was going to build, etc.)
    That's what you personally hope, isn't it?

    Having hit the 6 month mark of his presidency, it's now easy to imagine that Trump will go through the entire first year without any legislative victories. Now Donald may not really care about this but all those Republicans in the Congress who are up for re-election in 2018 have made many, many promises to their constituents about all the cool things they were going to do. Those constituents might not like it if those promises are broken and they might decide to vote for someone else. Who knows. So, you see, this little dust-up with Donald Jr. begins to have implications far beyond "Is he bad or simply stupid?"
    Those of us who voted for Trump did so because he was the only candidate that spoke to our issues. We aren't going to abandon our issues just because the democrats in the career civil service and in the news media try to destroy him. That was expected, it comes with the territory when fighting evil people. We might choose to favor different Congressional candidates, depending on what current members of Congress do, but those aren't likely to be democratic candidates. They will probably be more militantly aggressive Republican candidates, ones more willing to fight together and use their Congressional majority in accomplish important things. So if there is dissatisfaction among the electorate, it isn't just democrats moving left and becoming 'resistance' fighters and embracing the Bernie-wing of the party. Republicans (Americans) will be doing the exact same thing.

    By adopting a policy of "resistance", by rioting in the streets, fighting every conceivable aspect of Trump's administration, you give him perfect cover, the perfect excuse. Voters aren't going to blame him when they can see the kind of pressure that he's under from all of the entrenched elites, the "news" media, entertainment, academia, much of the business elites (when they can rip themselves away from colluding with China), even the entrenched federal civil service (including the intelligence agencies).

    Trump won in November without a whole lot of media campaigning, partly by playing rope-a-dope with his elite opponents, by attracting the most hysterical opposition that half the country (including a majority of America's white middle class) saw as disdain directed squarely at them and their issues. The left's attacks on Trump just served him as more illustrations. Voters didn't like it and voted accordingly, surprising all the pollsters. It was brilliant in its way. (Hillary's "deplorables" remark did more damage to her own campaign than anything any imaginary Russians supposedly did.)

    Now everyone can see the pressure directed at bringing down his administration and effectively engineering a coup. They see the riots in the streets and on university campuses. They see that all efforts are being directed at preventing half the American people from having any voice in the country's future. That's going to help explain any failures of Trump's administration and it will ensure that his base doesn't abandon him.
    Last edited by heirophant; 07-16-2017 at 08:35 AM.

  3. #35
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    "“Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.” - Lavrentiy Beria

    A requirement for an investigation is evidence of a crime committed. That is here lacking.

    Mueller loading up a team of Trump opponent lawyers? Maybe that should be investigated.

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  5. #36
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    So you're admitting that Mueller is the democrats' open-ended fishing-expedition?

    Look, the only obvious crime that we've really seen so far (apart from Hillary's server, the pay-to-play payments allegedly made by foreign governments to the Clinton foundation and all of that) is the flood of ostensible leaks, including what is purported to be national security information, that's supposedly being directed by unpatriotic democrats in the federal civil service to the left-media. The "highly placed sources" that the New York Times and the Washington Post always refuse to name. The secret CIA and NSA files that walk out the door and end up on Wikileaks. Assuming that the information is real, the people responsible for that kind of shit need to be identified, arrested and sentenced to long prison terms (or even death). If the information isn't real, then that would satisfy the legal definition of 'collusion', individuals working together to commit fraud against third parties (the American voters in this case).

    That's where the investigations should focus.
    I've not "admitted" anything. The investigation will proceed, probably for months and months. Mueller has been given wide latitude as to what he sees as relevant and there's every reason to believe he'll follow every lead wherever it goes. This is no different than the investigation of Bill Clinton which started with Whitewater and ended with impeachment re Monica Lewinski. Once the Mueller investigation is over, a report is produced which includes recommendations re prosecution. It's the DoJ that decides whether to prosecute, not Mueller. We've been led to believe that Mueller will not leak his findings and so we might not know much for a long time. I'm ok with waiting.
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  6. #37
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    That's what you personally hope, isn't it?
    I can understand why you'd be upset. I think a lot of people are upset. But please don't waste your time being upset with me. I know that I don't always get what I want. I didn't vote for Trump. I don't like him. But he's the President regardless of what I want. So I just hope that he and his people do their jobs honestly and well. In the end that's all that I can hope for. This investigation is about the honesty aspect. If he and his people come out clean then they come out clean. I won't be crying about a coverup like some others are crying about a witch hunt. This is the system of justice in our country and I'm happy to let it play out. You?
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  7. #38
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by decimon View Post
    Conspirator in what?
    I don't believe that you actually need me to answer that question, do you?
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  8. #39
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I don't believe that you actually need me to answer that question, do you?

    I'm not in a state of need but anticipation.

  9. #40
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    I hope you have fun during your visit to the state of anticipation. Right now I'm in the state of Connecticut.
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  10. #41
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I hope you have fun during your visit to the state of anticipation. Right now I'm in the state of Connecticut.

    Don't take any wooden nutmegs. But do take time to determine just what is being investigated. If the answer is "Anything and everything!" then that's a big no-no.

  11. #42
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    There is no reason to believe that Mueller has gone out of bounds but I'll admit that I do not really know where the line has been drawn or even if it has been drawn. The Republicans are in charge of everything and so I'mm guessing that they're paying close attention.
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  13. #43
    jhp
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4cz28 View Post
    You know I was going to post that and thought better of it. I get scammed from time to time. I guess I'm a bad person.
    Well. I believe in my total depravity, so the question is moot for me. I am a bad person. ;-)

  14. #44
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    Doing "opposition research" on political opposents isn't a crime. Receiving what Stanislav calls "kompromat" isn't a crime. Even if the political opponents are democrats and even if the opponent is Hillary. The DNC was doing it, "colluding" with the Ukrainian embassy and the oddly-named Ms. Chalupa, to say nothing of joining some "never Trumper" Republicans in paying Mr. Steele (sounds like a name of a TV spy) in the UK to produce his bizarre "golden showers" dossier. The mainstream media have made it their business to do non-stop opposition research on every tiny aspect of the Trump administration, in hopes of unearthing some juicy 'kompromat' that they can use to subvert the elected US government. Those things are certainly crude and they are dirty, they are being done with a viciousness and a fanaticism never before seen in US politics, but are they illegal?
    Yes. Receiving undeclared "help" from a foreign government potentially breaks campaign finance laws - and Kizmet gave links to articles stating exactly that. Also, there is an obvious question as to what exactly Kremlin wanted in exchange (and BTW, since they kept the meeting secret, THAT by itself was a piece of kompromat Russians held on POTUS close associates). And no, there's no evidence Clinton campaign did anything comparable. Chalupa denies both working for Clinton campaign AND meeting Ukrainian government officials for her Manafort research. That certain circles in Ukrainian diaspora tried to alert folks about Manafort concerns is not just unsurprising - I'm shocked they did not make more noise. A guy in inner Yanukovich circle managing Republican nominee? srsly? But then again, US-based diaspora is proportionally less influential than Canadian one.

    A few notes. First, it's fun to see how Democrats are becoming both national security and law and order party. Also, you have a peculiar sense of humor. Do you always like to make fun of foreign names? Do you enjoy Jewish and Polish ethnic slur jokes as well?

    On "deplorables" - I suspect more and more that it was a classic political "gaffe" - unwise true statement. People taking offense are choosing to identify as "the racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic - you name it" willingly and at their peril. In any way, it is at most comparable to Junior calling Trump opponents "not even people".
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  15. #45
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Leave it to a Conservative to mistake compassion for dishonesty.
    Hell, I'm the one on the receiving end of that and even I think it was a fair question.

    What I meant by that quote is that those scams that try to entice marks by preying on their greed ("oil minister" style scams) don't work on honest people. I (hopefully obviously) wasn't referring to people like Abner.
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  16. #46
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    Hell, I'm the one on the receiving end of that and even I think it was a fair question.

    What I meant by that quote is that those scams that try to entice marks by preying on their greed ("oil minister" style scams) don't work on honest people. I (hopefully obviously) wasn't referring to people like Abner.
    Of course you didn't. It took our special friend to apply his special logic to make it refer to Abner. I think this is, to a degree, telling.
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  17. #47
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Of course you didn't. It took our special friend to apply his special logic to make it refer to Abner. I think this is, to a degree, telling.
    JHP did no such thing.
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  18. #48
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    JHP did no such thing.
    He just taunted, as is their ilk's "politically incorrect" way.
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