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Thread: Kim Jong-un

  1. #1
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Kim Jong-un

    I really think it's wrong to wish bad things on people but it's hard not to think that Kim Jong-un is a person that the world could do without. It's wrong to want to kill him, right? I mean, it's wrong, isn't it? Like a really bad thing. But what if he sorta fell on some bullets, like one of those Russian guys? We wouldn't actually try to kill him, would we? No, the USA doesn't do things like that.

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  2. #2
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet
    No, the USA doesn't do things like that.
    It doesn't? What about Osama bin Laden? Not that I'm saying there was anything wrong with that...

    J.
    Last edited by Johann; 05-05-2017 at 12:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    I believe in forgiveness, redemption, etc.

    However, I also believe that some people, by their actions, forfeit their right to life. Kim Jong-un is a murderer, a rapist, a thief and is responsible for the suffering of millions. Sure, he didn't start the fire, but he's the one whose currently holding the gas can.

    Now, in my idealistic heart, I'd prefer a trial, a life sentence, a moment of realization and a lifetime of remorse. In reality, the most practical way to stop a monster like that is to just kill him.

    The problem with doing such a thing is that it likely doesn't resolve anything. There are too many people who benefit too much from the current order in DPRK to expect it to completely fold upon one man's demise. By necessity, I expect that they'd appoint a new messiah-like leader to carry on the legacy.
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    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    There are too many people who benefit too much from the current order in DPRK to expect it to completely fold upon one man's demise. By necessity, I expect that they'd appoint a new messiah-like leader to carry on the legacy.
    Maniac's right, of course.

    J.

  5. #5
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    I believe in forgiveness, redemption, etc.

    By necessity, I expect that they'd appoint a new messiah-like leader to carry on the legacy.

    Kim is like Stalin and Mao in that no one is safe for a moment while he lives. The successors to Stalin and Mao were beastly enough but not suicidal or wishing to perpetuate a regime of abject terror for all.

    IOW, there's hope for some improvement should Kim be somehow deposed.

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    airtorn is offline Moderator
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    I wonder if he just watched "The Interview".

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    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    The temptation to dispatch guys like Kim Jong-un, Nicolas Maduro, or Teodoro Obiang is easy to understand. But the problem with assassinating dictators is you never know when that's just going to make things worse, as with Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi.
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    Bruce is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    The temptation to dispatch guys like Kim Jong-un, Nicolas Maduro, or Teodoro Obiang is easy to understand. But the problem with assassinating dictators is you never know when that's just going to make things worse, as with Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi.
    Indeed; sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
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  10. #9
    heirophant is online now Registered User
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    Kim Jong Un's haircuts are enough to justify an airstrike.

    I don't think that we should be looking at striking North Korea in terms of morality. It isn't a matter of morality so much as it's a matter of interests and practical considerations.

    First, does North Korea represent an existential threat to the United States or to a significant part of it like SF, Silicon Valley (where I live), LA, or Hawaii? I don't think that Kim has ICBM's yet, but he does have submarine launched missiles that might conceivably carry a nuclear warhead. That capability is only going to grow greater the more we dither and the more time is allowed to pass.

    The North Koreans issue graphic threats almost every day, including videos showing American cities burning. They have torpedoed South Korean naval vessels, shelled South Korean islands and committed many other provocations. They will almost certainly be proliferators of nuclear technology, since nuclear weapons are all they have that make them a player on the world stage. Their only export, so to speak.

    So the question is whether we should make a preemptive strike on their nuclear, missile and submarine facilities. The longer we wait, the worse things get. (It should have been done in the 1990's, before they had any nukes.)

    First question: Can we launch a preemptive counter-force strike? Do we even know where the North Koreans' nukes are located? Can we destroy them with conventional (or nuclear) weapons? (I'd guess that they are in tunnels deep inside mountains.) Can we destroy their delivery systems if we can't eliminate the warheads? Can we destroy their fissionable materials processing plants even if we can't destroy the two dozen or so nuclear weapons they may already have? Would it be worth the danger of retaliation to South Korea certainly and maybe ourselves to eliminate North Korea's ability to make more nukes?

    Second question: What does South Korea think of doing that? They South Koreans are headed into a Presidential election and by all accounts the candidate topping the polls is somewhat anti-American, pro-Chinese and a champion of talks with North Korea. If South Korea isn't with us, I don't really see us doing anything. (And I don't see talks achieving anything besides giving Pyongyang more time.)

    Third question: Does the talk about engineering a coup in the North Korean military really have any chance of succeeding? North Korea is the world's best approximation to George Orwell's 1984, and I doubt if we have many agents there. There are almost certainly disgruntled officers and soldiers, given the regime's brutality, but they will be deeply closeted to protect their families. Identifying them might be impossible. And my impression is that the regime grades its forces on loyalty and fanaticism. Every young male is drafted. The most loyal and dedicated are moved into more elite units. The most elite and fanatical units have the best conventional equipment and no doubt the nukes. I fear that they are more like cults than military units and perhaps even Kim is afraid of them. He might have a tiger by the tail and feels that he needs to continue his brinksmanship to keep the crazier fanatics in his forces happy with his leadership. So any coup would probably bring about a civil war between loyal and disloyal forces, with the fanatics perhaps in the minority but in possession of the best equipment, training and conceivably the nuclear weapons. Things could get very ugly very fast.

  11. #10
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Indeed; sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
    Relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivil...if_assad_dies/

  12. #11
    ThePatriotHistoria is offline Registered User
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    Let his own people decide what to do with him. If he is to be removed from power, a referendum should be held on what do with him.

  13. #12
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePatriotHistoria View Post
    Let his own people decide what to do with him. If he is to be removed from power, a referendum should be held on what do with him.

    Is there a King Kong facepalm picture somewhere?

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    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePatriotHistoria View Post
    Let his own people decide what to do with him. If he is to be removed from power, a referendum should be held on what do with him.
    Here's the last group of people who asked for a referendum

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~oh20j/cla...iliansdead.jpg
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  15. #14
    ThePatriotHistoria is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Here's the last group of people who asked for a referendum

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~oh20j/cla...iliansdead.jpg

    You misunderstood. I'm not stating to hold a referendum on rather or not he should stay in power. It's obvious he and his regime has abused their authority and should be removed, hopefully bringing about reunification under a democracy. I'm referring to holding a referendum to properly discuss his punishment. Rather it be life imprisonment, execution, etc... I've taken a few classes in regards to China and Korea. There values vastly differ from ours. A referendum would reflect what the general populous (including "miners" slaves) want to do with him. Essentially a more democratic Nuremberg trial. I believe we all know the end result here, but rather than the "West" executing another "leader", let the people make that call so we can escape any criticism.

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  17. #15
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePatriotHistoria View Post
    I'm referring to holding a referendum to properly discuss his punishment.
    No need for a referendum, the mechanism already exists.

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  18. #16
    heirophant is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePatriotHistoria View Post
    Let his own people decide what to do with him. If he is to be removed from power, a referendum should be held on what to do with him.
    Well sure, theoretically.

    But how could a free referendum possibly take place in North Korea?

    I think that from my perspective (I'm an American) the more interesting question is what the US should do about him and his growing nuclear capabilities. As I suggested above, there don't seem to be any good options that are remotely realistic.

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