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  1. #1
    me again is offline Registered User
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    Thumbs down 12% of voters are illegal immigrants in Frederick County (Maryland)

    Author: Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times

    Citizens went to court to show that non-citizens were registering fraudulently to vote in Frederick County, Maryland. A court employee turned over pages of residents’ names disqualified from jury duty because of illegal immigrant status.

    Those lists were compared with voting records and 180 non-citizens were registered to vote. Of those, 63 had voted, some in multiple elections. The 180 registered votes came from 1,400 disqualified non-citizens, a rate of 12.8 percent.

    Frederick County’s numbers offer a snapshot from jury pools showing that non-citizens are registered to vote and are casting ballots in states which administer federal, state and local elections.

    “Obviously, there are people on the voting rolls who have no business being on the voter rolls,” said Daniel M. Gray, a lawyer who filed the lawsuit. “What needs to be determined is how extensive is this.”

    A group of political scientists declared that “zero” non-citizens voted in U.S. elections. However, the Frederick County court case deals with real people, not polls, and it shows illegal immigrants do indeed vote.


    Click here for full story.
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    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Well, I don't know much of anything about the "facts" in this article. Maybe these are some of Kelly Ann's "alternative facts." I don't know. But there are a few things that I do know. I know that it's possible for an undocumented immigrant to get a driver's license in Maryland. And I know that the Motor/Voter Bill registers people to vote when they get their driver's license. Having spent a certain amount of time in my local DMV it's not difficult for me to believe that some people were mistakenly registered to vote through that mechanism. If it's true that a few actually voted/tried to vote, well obviously it should not happen but it's far from constituting evidence of some widespread conspiracy. And as for our dear friends at the Washington Times, even after the events of today's Comey hearing, they're still defending Trumps wire tapping claims so . . .

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    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    And as for our dear friends at the Washington Times, even after the events of today's Comey hearing, they're still defending Trumps wire tapping claims so . . .

    LETTER TO THE EDITOR: Wiretap claim's good timing - Washington Times
    The Washington Times doesn't impress me either, but it's not an endorsement of its content when a newspaper publishes a letter to the editor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Well, I don't know much of anything about the "facts" in this article. Maybe these are some of Kelly Ann's "alternative facts." I don't know. But there are a few things that I do know.

    I know that it's possible for an undocumented immigrant to get a driver's license in Maryland. And I know that the Motor/Voter Bill registers people to vote when they get their driver's license.

    Having spent a certain amount of time in my local DMV it's not difficult for me to believe that some people were mistakenly registered to vote through that mechanism.
    Maryland is in compliance with the federal "Real ID Act," which means that state drivers licenses are not legally issued to applicants, unless they provide proof of citizenship. However, it is possible for an illegal immigrant to illegally provide forged, false or fake documents.

    Real ID Act:
    https://www.dhs.gov/current-status-states-territories
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    b4cz28 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Author: Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times

    Citizens went to court to show that non-citizens were registering fraudulently to vote in Frederick County, Maryland. A court employee turned over pages of residents’ names disqualified from jury duty because of illegal immigrant status.

    Those lists were compared with voting records and 180 non-citizens were registered to vote. Of those, 63 had voted, some in multiple elections. The 180 registered votes came from 1,400 disqualified non-citizens, a rate of 12.8 percent.

    Frederick County’s numbers offer a snapshot from jury pools showing that non-citizens are registered to vote and are casting ballots in states which administer federal, state and local elections.

    “Obviously, there are people on the voting rolls who have no business being on the voter rolls,” said Daniel M. Gray, a lawyer who filed the lawsuit. “What needs to be determined is how extensive is this.”

    A group of political scientists declared that “zero” non-citizens voted in U.S. elections. However, the Frederick County court case deals with real people, not polls, and it shows illegal immigrants do indeed vote.


    Click here for full story.
    No amount of information will make them admit that illegals are voting. I say admit because they know its happening.

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  6. #6
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Sigh.
    12% of alleged illegal immigrants were allegedly registered to vote. Homework assignment: find at least 2 ways this is different from "12% of voters are illegal immigrants in Frederick County (Maryland)". Even that number was obtained using undisclosed methodology - likely by comparing names; notoriously imprecise.

    The political genius of Trump is his ability to turn ordinary citizens to hyper-partisans; they in turn are willing not just to share fake news, but also to create their own. Is it just me, or this is really dangerous? BTW, Putin achieved the same feat with Crimea annexation; do they have the same advisors? Oh that's right: Manafort.

    If illegal immigrants are willing to vote at this rate (risking felony conviction and lifetime inadmissibility if discovered) - well, this is an impressive level of civic engagement which I do not really observe even among legal immigrants. It is telling that just a handful of people were ever charged with the deed, some clearly confused about their status and were assuming they can vote. This (impressive feats of stupidity) I can believe; it is very unlikely to move an election though.
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  7. #7
    me again is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    12% of alleged illegal immigrants were allegedly registered to vote. Even that number was obtained using an undisclosed methodology - most likely by comparing names; which is notoriously imprecise.
    Whether it's 10%, 12% or 15%: It's too many and lax loopholes need to be closed to make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to register to vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    If illegal immigrants are willing to vote at this rate (risking felony conviction and lifetime inadmissibility if discovered) - this is an impressive level of civic engagement. This (impressive feats of stupidity) I can believe; it is very unlikely to move an election though.
    There is nothing civic or impressive about illegal aliens voting illegally in the United States. Lax loopholes will be closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    The political genius of Trump is his ability to turn ordinary citizens into hyper-partisans; they share fake news and create their own. Is it just me, or this is really dangerous?
    President Donald Trump is a wrecking ball against political correctness. He will be in office for eight years (followed by four years under Pence).
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    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    Why do you think that there's so much opposition to voter ID laws?

    Here in California, I don't recall having to show any ID or proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. It was just a short little form in which I had to check a box that I was a citizen and sign my name at the bottom 'under penalty of perjury'. No supporting documents of any kind were required.

    It's so easy that I personally believe that some unknown but probably significant fraction of those registering to vote in many places probably aren't citizens.

  10. #9
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    Why do you think that there's so much opposition to voter ID laws?

    Here in California, I don't recall having to show any ID or proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. It was just a short little form in which I had to check a box that I was a citizen and sign my name at the bottom 'under penalty of perjury'. No supporting documents of any kind were required.

    It's so easy that I personally believe that some unknown but probably significant fraction of those registering to vote in many places probably aren't citizens.
    Meanwhile the opposition in Dominica has been calling for more stringent voter ID rules for years. Whether one supports or opposes those sorts of rules seems to depend less on principle and more on whether it's a touchdown for the home team or the away team.

    Personally, if you're going to have elections, then I think ID rules are a good idea, provided that there is no fee whatsoever at any stage of the process to get one. In Virginia one can get a state ID card at the DMV (people call it a "walkers license") for $10, I don't think there should even be that fee.
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  11. #10
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Whether it's 10%, 12% or 15%: It's too many and lax loopholes need to be closed to make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to register to vote.
    Yet you keep giving numbers. Bogus ones.
    Let's see: in 2016, Frederick County, MD had 164,428 registered voters. From your link: a biased non-profit, eager to show mass illegal voting, found 180 noncitizens (which is not the same as "illegals" BTW. While studying at Florida State, I got an official letter inviting me to register with Selective Service; I was neither required nor able to do so as an F1 student. It is reasonable to assume some legal non-immigrants get registered to vote by mistake as well). That represents, oh, 0.11% aggressively rounding up.
    Of these 180, the plaintiffs decided (using whichever method they chose) that 63 actually voted. Let's go ahead and assume, generously, that all of them in fact voted in 2016 General elections. In total, 126,536 people had voted. As you see, 63 voters would represent about 0.05% of the total. And that assuming their method of identifying illegal voters has any merit: notably, they did not try to nail any of the 63 alleged violators (who would have to commit perjury AND falsely claiming citizenship, both crimes).


    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    There is nothing civic or impressive about illegal aliens voting illegally in the United States. Lax loopholes will be closed.
    From standing for liberty and healthy suspicion of government, to fighting "lax loopholes". Impressive evolution for American conservatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    President Donald Trump is a wrecking ball against political correctness. He will be in office for eight years (followed by four years under Pence).
    So, faced with such shiny horizons, what's a lie or two? That's a creed of extremists of any stripe.
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  12. #11
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    "According to the Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration’s website (MVA), the new law allows undocumented immigrants to obtain a driver’s license when they have an identity document such as a valid current foreign passport, Maryland Income taxes for the preceding two years and two residency documents"

    Applying for a Driver

    I have no problem conceding that some people have voted illegally. I think it would be silly to say it's never happened. I also think it's fine to close whatever loopholes you like. I generally trust the legislative process to be fair. As for Trump being a wrecking ball, these days he looks more like a wreck. A major embarrassment over his wiretapping tweets. And the whole Russian connection thing is a ticking time bomb. Trumpcare won't pass as it's currently written and I haven't seen any construction startups down on that southern border. Still, it's early in the process. Who knows what will happen?
    Last edited by Kizmet; 03-21-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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  13. #12
    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    Why do you think that there's so much opposition to voter ID laws?

    Here in California, I don't recall having to show any ID or proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. It was just a short little form in which I had to check a box that I was a citizen and sign my name at the bottom 'under penalty of perjury'. No supporting documents of any kind were required. .
    Because voter ID laws are solution to nonexistent problem. There are two reasons to oppose them: first, some people are reluctant to impose any mandatory government ID on freedom grounds. Second, in many places courts had found that such laws suppress (and even "designed to suppress") turnout among poor, young, and minority voters; in other words, groups that tend to vote Democrat. And some Republican officials stupidly admitted as much.

    Personally, I have zero dogs in this fight at the moment. My Canadian IDs are all current, and I had no problem voting both times I wanted to (Toronto municipal plus the latest Federal elections).

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    It's so easy that I personally believe that some unknown but probably significant fraction of those registering to vote in many places probably aren't citizens.
    So, all people break laws for no other reason that it's easy? Or only "noncitizens"?
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  14. #13
    me again is offline Registered User
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    нуль незаконних голосів? nulʹ nezakonnykh holosiv?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Yet you keep giving numbers. Bogus ones.
    There are people who say that there was 0% voter fraud in the United States. They say nay, there is not even one single fraudulent vote. Nadda. Zip. Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Let's see: in 2016, Frederick County, MD had 164,428 registered voters. From your link: a biased non-profit, eager to show mass illegal voting, found 180 noncitizens. That represents, oh, 0.11% aggressively rounding up.
    Stanislav, as a foreighner, do you think that there is there an acceptable percentile for illegal voting in the U.S.?
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    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    There are people who say that there was 0% voter fraud in the United States. They say nay, there is not even one single fraudulent vote. Nadda. Zip. Zero.
    0.11% is much closer to 0 than it is to 12%. If you like, I can google Dr. Isaac Azimov's (who was, interestingly, a Jewish immigrant from south Russia before becoming great American writer) essay on hierarchy of wrongness again.

    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Stanislav, as a foreighner, do you think that there is there an acceptable percentile for illegal voting in the U.S.?
    Fiscal prudence dictates that it's not worth spending money fighting something that has no impact on outcome (especially if it could disenfranchise more Americans than there are alleged cheats). Which generally happens to be American approach to law enforcement (consider speeding and tax evasion).

    What I, as a foreigner, find unacceptable is using bogus numbers and outright lies in order to fan hostility towards foreigners. Both Mr. Trump and his supporters, including you, insist on keeping doing exactly that, using tactics much worse than what Harpercons used here in Canada. So forgive me if I wish you every failure in your political hopes.
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  17. #15
    me again is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    I wish you every failure in your political hopes.
    Stanislav, the political hope is to make America great again. When President Trump wins his second election, the goal is to keep America great. As a foreigner, you are cordially invited to help Americans with this noble endeavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    What I, as a foreigner, find unacceptable is using bogus numbers and lies to "fan hostility" towards foreigners.
    The purpose of identifying and eliminating illegal voter fraud is not to "fan hostility" to foreigners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Both Mr. Trump and his supporters, including you, insist on [fanning hostility towards foreigners], using tactics much worse than here in Canada.
    The goal is to identify illegal voting and to close lax loopholes - and not to fan hostility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    Fiscal prudence dictates that it's not worth spending money fighting something that has no impact on outcome... Which generally happens to be the American approach...
    Canadians and Ukrainians have historically not done as well financially, economically and industrially, so following their model is not prudent.
    Last edited by me again; 03-21-2017 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Keep America Great!!!
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    Stanislav is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Stanislav, the political hope is to make America great again. When President Trump wins his second election, the goal is to keep America great. As a foreigner, you are cordially invited to help Americans with this noble endeavor.
    The path you chose will not lead to that goal. Mark my word.

    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    The purpose of identifying and eliminating illegal voter fraud is not to "fan hostility" to foreigners.


    The goal is to identify illegal voting and to close lax loopholes - and not to fan hostility.
    Not true. The goal is, and always has been, to win elections and feed the ego of the likes of Trump. Secondary goal is to cut taxes for the rich. And the means to achieve this is to fan hostility towards whoever is convenient - foreigner, Latino, Muslim, LGBT, "feminists", "libruls". It worked, as you see.


    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Canadians and Ukrainians have historically not done as well financially, economically and industrially, so following their model is not prudent.
    Ad hominem. Try making substantial arguments.
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