Trump's Lies

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by sanantone, Oct 2, 2016.

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  1. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I am no supporter of Trump and it's a little mystery to me how his supporters actually try to sidestep all his lies, as if thy don't matter. They like some of the things he says but somehow don't put it together that those are lies as well. I typically watch MSNBC at night. They are unashamedly liberal, a sort of Fox counterpoint. They routinely list Trump;s biggest lies on a Top 10 board and, unlike many other news outlets they actually do some fact-checking of his speeches. It's shocking how many lies he tells.

    Now many people don't like Hillary. I'm not crazy about her in the same way that I don't like processed cheese. She has bee manufactured over the years by the political forces that transform all long-term politicians. Lots of compromises. I imagined that the first female President would be Republican but now it seems it will be Hillary. I think she will be a better choice than Donald, who I see as being potentially dangerous. I know that some reading this disagree and that's OK. I'm not trying to change your minds. I think that both are fairly ruthless people but I think that Donald's basic motives are purely selfish and Hillary's are only partially selfish.. Mostly I feel bad about the fact that the people who would probably do the best job in the position would not even consider it because of what we've made of the election process. In some ways, I suppose, we get what we deserve.
     
  3. Life Long Learning

    Life Long Learning Active Member

    The Billionaire RePUKE or the Criminal DEMONcrat.....we all lose!
     
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I don't like them either, but childish names don't make the point very well. It's like all those people who call him "Obummer", they just sound like simpletons for thinking that's endlessly clever.
     
  5. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I've been thinking about this phenomenon and have come up with some theories as to why this has become.

    1) In-between being called out for his lies and the stupidity of his policies, Trump has also been bombarded by an endless barrage of false or greatly exaggerated accusations. Trump's detractors have so greatly muddied the waters that, for his supporters, there ceases to be any meaning to legitimate criticisms.

    2) If one somehow has mustered up fervent support for him, it's very unlikely to have ever been for his integrity or the wisdom of his policies to begin with. You go into the support of Donald Trump already knowing that you can't take everything he says seriously. Having his lies pointed out is completely moot at that point.

    3) Naturally, our instinct is to view Trump in terms of the dichotomy between he and Clinton, since those are the two major candidates. "Trump is a liar." "Oh, so I should vote for Hillary Clinton? As if she's such a saint, herself?" This goes on both ways. While it may be human instinct, it has been played up by every form of popular news media instead of using their resources to bring a side of intelligence to the table.
     
  6. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    The Democraps or the Repugnantans. Pick your favorite racket.
     
  7. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

  8. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I touched on this in my #3 theory in my post above. So, Clinton is a liar. A felonious one at that. It doesn't negate the fact that Trump is a liar, too. At least, I think he's a liar. Oftentimes I wonder if he actually believes what he's saying- like he can convince himself that whatever comes out of his mouth is true by virtue of the fact that it came out of his mouth. I guess that wouldn't make him a liar, technically, but it would still make him untrustworthy.
     
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

  10. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Personally, I think they are both liars. I'm reluctant to label Hillary a criminal because, quite frankly, she's never been charged let alone convicted. Is that because she is squeaky clean or because her political power shields her from prosecution? That's another matter entirely.

    I'm also a bit concerned about the NYAG's investigations of Trump, Trump University and the Trump Foundation. The AG is not apolitical. He's a staunch Hillary supporter. If he wanted to maintain credibility as an impartial officer of the court he could appoint a special prosecutor. He isn't doing that. He's leading the charge. He's holding press conferences about things that went on over the course of decades that, all of the sudden, this election cycle have become priority #1 for him. The appearance of political reprisal is great. He could mitigate that but he isn't. It comes off, to the objective viewer, as ridiculous as Joe Arpaio's Obama birth certificate posse.

    But the fact is that everyone's mind, for the most part, is made up. If you are a Hillary supporter then you'll make excuses for, or downplay, anything she's ever done wrong. If you're a Trump supporter then you'll do the same for him. If either candidate pulled out a handgun and straight up murdered a stranger on the street and thousands of people had recorded it we'd have endless debates as to whether it was actually self-defense, whether we saw the person reaching for something that could have been a gun etc.

    We know this because we have that experience already with police shootings and officer involved deaths that were caught on film. There is no debate as to whether Eric Garner was killed. It is all on film. But some people say it was completely justified to put him in a choke hold. Others say it was not.

    So the introduction of "objective" fact doesn't really stop people from trying to look for nuance in a situation particularly when they went into the discussion with a chosen narrative. If we can't agree, as a society, on a situation where there is a video of the situation why would we agree on things far less concrete like politics?
     
  11. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    At least a handful of Hillary supporters would be in favor of allowing non-citizens to vote in the election, just to guarantee Donald Trump's loss. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q63h59hFcX0 As bad of a President I fear that Donald Trump would be, I'm even more afraid of the complete breakdown of reason and principle behind such attitudes. The belief that the ends justify the means, at nearly any cost, is exactly why we have to fear that none of our electronic messages are private and why it may yet be common place for police drones to spy on people without warrants.

    Most of the debate I was hearing was as to whether or not it was actually a chokehold or just looked like one, the difference between the hold being against department policy vs being illegal, and how much of his death was due to police abuse vs preexisting health conditions. There's also the fact that he resisted arrest, not helping his own cause. Nearly everyone (that I heard and read) said that he should not have been arrested to begin with, that the officer who grabbed him from behind was dangerously overaggressive and that he didn't do anything to deserve dying. Even Bill O'reilly, who makes a living by deliberately provoking negative emotions, was deeply sympathetic to Garner. The biggest debate of all was whether or not the officers' targeting of Garner was racial in nature.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    At least a handful of Trump supporters would like to strip minorities of suffrage to guarantee Hillary's loss. So...

    I disagree that the racial element was "the biggest debate of all." It takes only a casual search to see how people are defending the choke hold with analyses of subtle hand movements and tone for people to conclude "Yes, the police were right to use that level of force because he was being belligerent."

    The point is that if you went in saying "Well, the police are all good and this guy probably had it coming" then no video will convince you otherwise.

    Perhaps Tamir Rice is a better example. The police maintained fervently that they ordered him three times to drop his weapon before shooting him as a last resort. Then a video, which they didn't know existed, surfaced and showed the police pulling up within feet of him and gunning him down in mere seconds. Yet, people feel confident in viewing the grainy video that Tamir was still reaching for his waistband. My personal "favorite" was the cadre of anonymous posters who insisted that the officers may have made been yelling through the window for him to drop the weapon as they approached.

    To reiterate my point, however, can't agree on video. Literally having the ability to see the event unfold, and rewatch it as many times as we like, still isn't enough to challenge preconceived notions. So what chance do we have when dealing with politics?
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    You could have brought this up in my Clinton thread, but you didn't. Instead, you only use this as a tool to deflect from Trump's problems to avoid acknowledging them. Pointing out Clinton's lies does not excuse Trump from his lies. We do not know if Trump has ever lied under oath, but there is a lot of evidence that he has broken other laws: housing discrimination, improper use of charity donations, and doing business with Cuba. A Republican AG was about to join a lawsuit against Trump University until he used charity funds to make a $25,000 contribution to her campaign.
     
  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I could be remembering incorrectly or we could be looking at different sources.

    This is taking us even further off-topic, but here I go anyway. I rewatched the video for the first time in countless months. It makes my stomach turn to see the officer seem to really wrench the hold in after Garner is already on his way down to the ground. :(

    You made the point very well, and I accidentally restarted the whole debate. Sorry about that :tongue:

    None. We're doomed.
     
  15. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    One of the reasons why I got off of Facebook was because I felt sandwiched every election year. My friends and family includes many ultra-conservatives and uber-liberals. Basically, for a three to four month span, I just couldn't post anything other than cat videos or pictures of my kids without sparking an intense battle.
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I can't be bothered to read every single thread in the Political section, I just toss a truth bomb now and again when I come across something that needs it.

    It's pretty pathetic that the best you can come up with, when faced with irrefutable proof that Hillary Clinton committed perjury (it obviously runs in the family) is to scream "Trump lied too!!!!"

    I have news for you; everyone lies. You lie, I lie, Trump lies, and Hillary lies. The HUGE difference is that Hillary lied under oath about her willful actions that endangered national security. To compare that to Trump *allegedly* lying about something like charity donations is like telling a Stage 4 cancer patient that you know how they feel, because you have a head cold.

    Hillary Clinton has lied, does lie, and will lie about anything and everything with absolutely, positively, no shame or remorse whatsoever, provided it suits her end game; attaining and keeping power. People have died because of her incompetence, arrogance, and shameless lies, which doesn't seem to bother you a whit.

    BTW, did you notice that Hillary's statement "All victims of sexual assault deserve to be believed" has been removed from her campaign website? I guess Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones, and Gennifer Flowers, all sexual assault victims of her husband whom Hillary tried to viciously smear and discredit, had something to say about that.
     
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

  18. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Actually, YOUR response to Trump lying was that Clinton lies too. This thread was started with a post about Trump. Yes, it is pathetic that your response to Trump lying is that Clinton lies too. Misusing charity funds is not simply a lie; it's illegal. Of course, everyone occasionally tells lies, but if you think that constantly lying is normal, I find that to be concerning, especially with you being a police officer. I do not find myself lying nearly as much as Trump and, if I were running for public office, I wouldn't constantly make up my own facts. I don't see how anyone can say that someone is putting up a good argument for his or her policy stances when those stances are based on lies. Sometimes, I can't tell if Trump is deliberately lying, just making up things because he hasn't done the research, or has done the research but can't remember anything.

    If Trump is willing to lie about anything and everything on the campaign trail, then he will likely lie about anything and everything while in office. He just hasn't had the chance to lie as a public servant. My greater national security concern is that a foreign country has been hacking into the computers of Americans in an attempt to get Trump elected.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2016
  19. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Even though this is another one of your attempts to deflect rather than start your own thread, can you link me to a source that says Gennifer Flowers said she was sexually assaulted? I know she claimed having a 12-year affair with Bill Clinton. Juanita Broaddrick actually has a little in common with one of Trump's accusers. Broaddrick continued to work with Bill Clinton after the alleged incident, which is actually not unusual. Later, she signed a deposition recanting her story. Jill Harth accused Trump of attempting to rape her and wrote a supportive letter about him years later. There has been a pattern established with Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. Maybe that is why Trump originally defended Clinton against the impeachment.

    As for Benghazi, the family members of those who died in the Benghazi attacks disagree on who is at fault. Patricia Smith blames Clinton, but Dr. Anne Stevens does not. She blames Congress for underfunding the State Department leaving it short-staffed. She also believes that, if Congress really cared about the safety of State Department employees, they would increase funding rather than waste millions on multiple investigations.

    Chris Stevens

    Now, on to the Clinton email server. Should she have received State Department emails on a private server? No, because it was against the rules. Did she really put national security at risk? Probably not because State Department emails were hacked whereas her private email server wasn't.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2016
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I literally burst out laughing when I read that absolute gem.

    It really must be exhausting, expending all the energy you do in trying to defend the indefensible, all the while cooking up theories that Trump *MAY HAVE* lied about something.

    Hillary Rodham Clinton committed perjury, a felony. She went before a Congressional committee, raised her right hand, then swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    Then she proceeded to lie her ass off with the smug arrogance of someone who knew the fix was in, and she'd never be held accountable by this train wreck of an administration.

    I know you haven't, so please take a look at this, then realize that every time that Comey confirms that Hillary lied, that's one count of perjury. What's the standard for impeachment? "High crimes and misdemeanors".

    FBI Director James Comey admits that Hillary lied

    Hillary is already disqualified from holding the office of POTUS, and we haven't even had the election yet. No amount of rationalizing, wild counter charges, or temper tantrums is going to change that, sorry buddy.
     

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