Clinton has several VP options: Fiery liberals, Hispanics and white guys

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Abner, Jul 20, 2016.

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  1. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Wow!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-has-these-vp-options-fiery-liberals-hispanics-and-white-guys/2016/07/17/f13bb3ec-4c17-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html

    "A scandal-free former governor from a crucial swing state, Kaine could be a genial antidote for a nominee tarred by decades of controversy. Even Republicans have struggled to find ways to attack Kaine, a Harvard Law School graduate who is fluent in Spanish and who once volunteered as a missionary in Honduras."

    This guys sounds awesome, and speaks Spanish very well!

    "Castro and Labor Secretary Thomas Perez, another oft-touted contender, could further engage Latinos in an election where many already feel alienated by Trump’s immigration proposals and disparaging comments about Mexicans.

    Two Hispanic guys. You know, that just gives me goose bumps. The thought that a Hispanic person might actually become VP or President was something I never used to think would be possible. This gives me a special sense of pride, but of course I know I am only dreaming right now because it is so early in the election cycle. Wow!
     
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I mean, okay, but to be honest, I don't get the pride thing. I'm basically with George Carlin on this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIG4-03Gru4
     
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    George Carlin said some absolutely excellent things during the course of his life. This is one of them.

    Here's the deal...

    I don't get ethnic pride either. And "national pride" is a fancy way of saying "nationalism" which I'm not a fan of. I served in the U.S. Navy. Why? Because they offered me benefits and travel. I didn't serve in the Canadian Navy because I'm not a Canadian and didn't live in Canada. I didn't serve in the Mexican Navy because I'm not Mexican and I didn't live in Mexico. The U.S. has not fought a single war since WW2 that had anything to do with "preserving our freedom." I had no such delusions going into it that I would be doing something other than serving as a cog in a war machine that served the interests of private defense contractors, an their shareholders, more than anyone or anything else. But they offered three hots, a cot, medical, dental, training and the opportunity to get out of my godforsaken Pennsylvania town where my only other option would have been crashing on the couch in my mother's one bedroom apartment in Brighton Beach.

    Over all, I'm generally "happy" being an American. I am also appreciative to have been born in a first world country. But I would be equally appreciative had I been born in Canada, the UK, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, France etc. for many of the same reasons.

    Personally, I find shame in the fact that our nation finds it so novel that a non-white protestant male is running for national office. Europe has seen a number of female prime ministers. We, on the other hand, have throngs of people banging their fists that Obama "isn't really black" because his mother was white and arguing that he's some sort of crypto-Muslim who maintained a church membership for decades just to throw people off of his scent.

    We are a nation of bigots. And we are at least a few decades behind other first world nations in terms of race relations and our commitment to science education. While most of Europe is developing and implementing green technology we are saying that climate science is a hoax, evolution is bunk because it doesn't jive with a book that says rape is OK and finding new and exciting ways to poison the planet. In fact, we revel in our ability to hurt the environment.

    So I don't have pride in the fact that Hillary is considering a token Hispanic VP (yes, both are qualified, but we haven't really heard of them until now, have we?). I take issue with the fact that it's considered "good enough" to have a token VP candidate be it Perez or Palin. I'll take some pride when our nation elects a President of color without trying to stir up a controversy around the non-issue that he was really born in Africa. Or when we elect a woman without painting her as a criminal (despite being cleared) when the guy running against her is being investigated for fraud by the Attorney General and enjoys no such criticism.

    Yeah, I'm happy that we're making progress as a nation. But I'm certainly not proud of our "earned" C- especially since so many people feel that's a fine place to settle.
     
  4. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    "We are a nation of bigots. And we are at least a few decades behind other first world nations in terms of race relations and our commitment to science education."

    You know what? You are right. I guess I like to delude myself. Even if a Hispanic ever becomes President, they will attack him just like they attacked Obama. Some dick wad will ask for his birth certificate, and they will make little cartoons of the President riding a burro, eating nopales and drinking tequila. Then they will claim it is only a joke, just like when they say that a picture of our current president portraying him as a chimp is a joke. Fun you see?

    This country is ass backwards in some respects, not all though. Thank god one candidate brought certain racial issues right out in the open, for the world to see. Better that way so people at least know what they are dealing with.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2016
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I've heard of Castro because he was the mayor of San Antonio, but Castro garnered national attention when he gave the keynote address at the 2012 Democratic National Convention.
     
  6. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I don't mean to diminish either man's qualifications. And I'm sure both are more than capable of doing their jobs.

    But let's think about that career progression...

    San Antonio City Council -> Mayor of San Antonion -> Secretary of Housing and Urban Development -> Vice President

    Granted, it was odd for Obama to go from Law Professor -> State Senator -> Less Than One Term U Senator -> President

    On the one hand, maybe it's a good thing that we are getting younger people into these offices. And maybe less Washington face time to taint them at the outset is a good thing. But I also can't help but notice that these spry young minority candidates always get paired up with an older Washington insider. Young and vibrant Obama gets saddled with DNC stalwart Biden. And now the assumed first female president of the U.S. since at least 2006 is going to potentially pick someone as a running mate with no federal experience beyond the Department of Housing and Urban Development?

    I guess it just seems less sincere to me. We know that McCain didn't know Palin. He picked her because some analyst thought that having a female running mate would be a good idea and she was the only available GOP female not wearing an American flag burqa.

    The implication, as I read it, is that we need to pair our minorities to a white Protestant (preferably male) to make them palatable and electable. Alternatively, we need to pair a minority to one of our old white Protestants to get a minority vote for the aforementioned white guy.

    That's a lot different than picking someone who was, I don't know, the most qualified for the job?
     
  7. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    He's been on the "radar" for a long time. I can recall an article in NYT or the Post back about maybe 5-6 year ago touting him as the first Hispanic President. The article had a goofy headline about Non-Hispanic Hispanic or some such nonsense.

    The reason I remember him was when he became Mayor he was paid something paltry like $5000 a year.

    Hardly a "token". Pretty insulting really.
     
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    When Sarah Palin was on McCain's ticket she was derided for being unqualified. She was Governor of a U.S. State.

    Castro was Mayor of San Antonio a role which, I believe, doesn't even carry the sort of executive authority that it does in other cities. His highest elected office is as mayor of a non-major city (no offense, San Antonio, but it isn't NYC or Chicago). His highest federal office is a relatively obscure cabinet position.

    I'm sorry, but if Castro was not Hispanic there is no way any major publication would be identifying him as presidential material.

    There are a lot of people with promise who can do the job. and if we were talking about running for Senate or Governor of Texas I don't think you'd see much opposition. That's a typical career progression. When a person gets to skip all of that and is crowned by the media as the "first" or "next" (insert gender, ethnicity or race) then to say that they aren't being used as a token is a bit naive.
     
  9. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    While San Antonio is not a big metro area (mayors aren't elected to run metro areas anyway), it is the 7th largest city in the U.S. With its rapid growth, it is on a path to becoming the 5th largest city in the U.S. I'm not saying this qualifies him for being president, but he is definitely not unheard of in Democratic circles.

    I never thought Sarah Palin was unqualified because she was the governor of a sparsely populated state, which happens to have less people than San Antonio, but because of the things that came out of her mouth.
     
  10. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Julian Castro didn't run San Antonio. The city manager did. Sarah Palin ran Alaska (or, according to some accounts, Todd Palin did, but that's another story). There was no "State Manager" running the day-to-day. The mayor of NYC may not "run" NYC but he (based upon the incumbent) manages the people who run it in a similar manner to the way the president "runs" the federal government.

    Different cities have different government structures. If you're the mayor of a city like New York or Chicago I'd say you have the sort of experience that, if you jumped to the White House directly, it isn't that far of a leap in terms of the size of your administration and the scope of your duties.

    Many other cities are just too small to justify very complex government structures.

    Even still, the only viable presidential candidate who ever tried to make the leap directly from the Mayor's office to the White House was Rudy Giuliani. And, even then, he didn't really have a real shot at it. Had the primaries been held within a year after 9/11 maybe he would have been able to ride the whole standing at Ground Zero wearing a baseball cap imagery a little further. But, as time dragged on and Bernard Kerik kept getting convicted of crimes, his fame tapered off. Still, the mayor of NYC has one of the largest police departments and one with an international intelligence program.

    I'm not saying Castro is "unheard of" but there is a difference between being known and having the sort of experience that one would consider adequate prep to being the Vice President.

    If Castro held a cabinet post of even slightly more prestige that might make a difference. But he doesn't. He's the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. A job he's only had for two years.

    If Julian Castro was Jerry Carlin, a white anglo-saxon protestant, the exact same resume would be a fine start to a political career. But no one would be tapping him for a VP run in the next election. Quite possibly because no politician would benefit from a young white protestant guy on their ticket. The minority candidate will add the obligatory old white guy and the old white guy will add the obligatory minority. The fictional Jerry Carlin will have to likely bake in Congress for a few decades before anyone takes him seriously.

    First, I agree. The content of what she said was her greatest downfall. However a lot of people pointed to her lack of "experience."

    Where I will disagree is that the population of a state versus San Antonio doesn't really matter in this context. The role and responsibility of the governor versus the mayor does matter. One actually operated an administration which oversaw infrastructure and public policy. The other is largely a figurehead.

    So Julian Castro doesn't compare to Governors or even mayors who actually oversee an administration. His nearest metro comparison is that he was sort of like a Borough President in NYC. That's fine but that, plus two years in a lower tier cabinet position, would never land him on the ticket as a VP candidate unless they were just trying to grab the hispanic vote.

    We can pretend that isn't the case, of course. We can act like Julian Castro is actually "qualified" for the job despite his only having two years of federal administrative experience and very low level (in terms of responsibility) municipal service. And he may very well be known in Democratic circles. But Hillary isn't choosing him because she's seen his work and knows his skills. If she picks him it will be because the analysts told her that a young hispanic male would be the wisest choice and he was on the list she was given.
     
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    So far the serious Hispanic candidates for president have been Republicans. So they probably will be viciously attacked, but by Democrats. So it goes.
     
  12. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member


    Yeah wait until the half-witted GOP sends out George P. Bush as a candidate! The media will sputter and scofflaw so much...until they see a picture of the dude. He makes Julian Castro look white.


    LOL at the people thinking this President is the first one to be attacked on a personal level. I can remember when some British people made a movie about assassinating Shrub, and it won an award! EVERY president gets attacked by their political opponents. Every. Single. One.


    Anyone remember the comedian who said she wished Sara Palin would be gang raped?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2016
  13. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Obama was born in Hawaii. Birth certificate released and everything. Hawaii confirms it's all legit. The birthers still trudge on. Even idiots like Joe Arpaio waste public money "investigating" the issue.

    Ted Cruz was born in Canada. We know this to be a fact. He admits it. Aside from a few lawsuits arguing he wasn't a natural born citizen no real birther uproar.

    For Obama, being born in Kenya meant that 1) he was not an American 2) Secret muslim. The claims themselves were, at their very core, about race and xenophobia.

    I don't recall anyone on the Dem side ever arguing that Ted Cruz couldn't be President because he was of Cuban descent. No one made shameless Ricky Ricardo jokes to score points with their constituents. Nor did we see tons of stories about local and state DNC chairs sharing cartoons of Marco Rubio wearing a sombrero and dressed like the Frito Bandito or like Speedy Gonzalez. But Obama has been drawn to look like a monkey so many times even the racists are getting tired of it.

    Will the democrats viciously attack Trump? Yeah, probably. But I'd guess only one of the two candidates would be likely to make the other's gender a key issue. There is a difference between political attacks and personal attacks made for political purposes.

    "He was involved in shady dealings how can we trust him?" Political attack

    "He doesn't look like us, we can't trust him and 'ha ha ha' let's make fun of his ethnicity/race/religion while we're at it." Personal attack

    Of course a bit part of the issue is that, while there are good people in the GOP, there are some bad people who feel comfortable being racists in public under a "Tea Party tellin' it like it is" sort of platform. And the GOP gets credit for all of them.
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

  15. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    "Of course a bit part of the issue is that, while there are good people in the GOP, there are some bad people who feel comfortable being racists in public under a "Tea Party tellin' it like it is" sort of platform. And the GOP gets credit for all of them."

    Well, and that's the problem with the GOP. They will continue to die on the vine if they continue on their path of being seen as the party of the "angry white guy". The do not seem to grasp that they need to diversify, even though McConnell and his ilk have discussed the issue of being more inclusive after they lost to Obama. Hmmm. Oh well! GWB understood the power of inclusion when he ran to his credit, but the others have not followed suit.

    On another note. I believe HRC will pick the very able Tim Kaine as VP. That would be so cool! The dude is fluent in Spanish, and was an ex Catholic Missionary! Sweet! Yeah boy!!!!!!!!!!
     
  16. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member


    I think the political and personal attacks are stupid and draw too much attention away from real talk about real issues. But to act like only one side is doing is absolutely preposterous.
     
  17. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    "Well, and that's the problem with the GOP. They will continue to die on the vine if they continue on their path of being seen as the party of the "angry white guy"

    Here is an interesting bit:

    The Republican Party Is on the Verge of Extinction

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/endangered-species-alert-elephantidae-republicanus-191621059.html

    "The factors leading to the precipitous decline of this once-ubiquitous pachyderm are still poorly understood. It is believed, however, that a high degree of dietary specialization may have contributed to its decline. Known to consume large quantities of “American” cuisine and eschew foods it considers “ethnic,” E. republicanus gradually cut itself off from numerous potentially sustaining food sources."

    "Although it is well-known among biologists that genetic diversity is critical to the survival and well-being of any species, E. republicanus has displayed a lamentable tendency to drive away potential sources of greater genetic diversity, opting instead to interbreed. The gradual whitening of E. republicanus appears to be one unfortunate consequence of this habit. Less than a century ago, substantial numbers of brown and black elephants existed within the typical E. republicanus herd, but beginning in the mid-1940s, their numbers began to decline steeply. While some of these darker-hued members of the herd are presumed to have died off, others appear to have fled or been driven out, finding a niche instead within the growing herds of the Republican elephant’s longtime rival, E. a. democraticus."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2016
  18. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I didn't mean to say that only one side is doing it. However, only one side has done it with race.

    We can quibble over whether the people who made race an issue should actually be considered GOP. But considering the leader of the birther movement just secured the GOP nomination for President I think it's difficult to escape.

    Sarah Palin was painted as an absolute airhead. And yeah, she has said a few things that might come off as ditzy. But the substance of what she said was very rarely evaluated in the media. Instead once SNL successfully planted the quote "I can see Russia from my house!" it all came down to that.

    I used to vote Republican. I voted for McCain in 2008. I felt he handled himself with a level of class that seems to be gone from politics.

    Career politicians seem to have a certain level of polish. The tea party candidates don't have that polish. They get elected by specifically not having that polish. And, frankly, since the rise of the tea party the personal attacks have grown and become increasingly more personal.
     
  19. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member


    You got my point, and in turn I get yours so we're in agreement.


    I'm not defending ANY attacks.


    You keep bringing up the T.E.A. Party however. Since I don't follow them and I don't frequent the anti T.E.A. party sites either, I'm completely unaware of what they are up to. Are they a big thing again now? Did they have a big presence at the RNC?


    The only time I hear about them is when a (typically) liberal person brings them up and that's usually in conjunction with Sara Palin too.


    Apparently Trump's speech from last night was pretty polished, I guess he was not into his normal "attack others and trite sound bite" mode. And from pictures it seems like it was received decently from CNN viewers. Did you watch it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2016
  20. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    There are two ways of looking at the Tea Party:

    1. The individual organizations (Tea Party Majority, Tea Party Patriots)

    2. The unorganized "movement"

    They're active. But not as a separate entity. It's difficult because TEA is a subset of the GOP. There is no formal "tea party candidate." But there are candidates who are considered to be "Tea Party Candidates" based upon their appeal to that demographic.

    The most prominent example would be the guy who beat Eric Cantor.

    But considering Ted Cruz is part of the Tea Party Movement and came frighteningly close to the nomination (compared to say, Libertarians who have attempted the same feat) I'd say they are still a force to be reckoned.

    I did not watch Trump's speech. My Facebook is blowing up with people who either did watch it or didn't watch it and still feel comfortable comparing it to Hitler speeches. I didn't like that nonsense sensationalism in 2008 and I don't much care for it now.

    While I don't think Trump would make a good president I also don't think the world will implode if he's elected. I feel about the same with regards to Hillary. I'm not mad that Trump said "Ban the Muslims." But I am a little miffed that so many people in our society responded to that with "Yeah! Good idea!" for example.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2016

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