Merely an honest question, not looking to press any hot button issues.

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Abner, May 26, 2012.

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  1. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    What do most of you think about birther donald trump endorsing Romney? Is this really a good idea? I think even most level headed republicans think this birther issue has been laid to rest.

    Just wondering.

    Abs :smile:
     
  2. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    I believe Donald Trump will say or do anything to keep himself in the news.
     
  3. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    I like Trump but wished that he would have dropped the Obama birth certificate issue.
    I also wished that Obama had furnished the certificate early on in order to convince the skeptics that he is indeed qualified to be president.
     
  4. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I think the whole calling someone a "birther" is BS...Obama started this whole mess and egged it on, if he loses the election by a small margin it's his own fault for not showing it sooner and turning off voters by casting doubt. It's a fact he spent millions fighting showing it..why? I think he was being an Typical elitist tumbing his nose at middle class Americans. Sorry for the rant!

    I don't think even the casual American voter gives a darn what that big haired weirdo thinks btw.
     
  5. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Say what you want to say about Trump, but you've got to admire his business savvy and branding. He took his dad's small empire and grew it exponentially. He almost went belly up in the 90's but came back stronger than ever. I appreciate his accomplishments as a businessman because real estate is a tough racket. I still don't know what to think about his political ambitions, but I do prefer business persons over career politicians.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    There is mounting evidence that the birth certificate is a forgery, and no one has explained how Obama got a SS number issued in Connecticut when he never lived there. His self-written bio from his first book;

    [​IMG]
     
  7. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    They call these folks birthers, but lets be honest about what they are. These people are essentially conspiracy theorists. Thats it. They are no different than those folks who believe that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration and was the result of controlled demolition, not aircraft crashing into the world trade center.

    Think about it. If you believe that the president was born in Kenya (or even if you just have serious doubts about his birth in Hawaii), take a hard look at the level of conspiracy, spanning DECADES, that would have had to occur for this to be true.

    1)The government of Hawaii would have to actively be participating in this conspiracy, by supplying TWO forged birth certificates.

    2)Obama's relatives in Hawaii, either for no reason at all, or as part of some massive conspiracy back in 1961 had a birth announcement placed in BOTH of Hawaii's newspapers.

    3)Somehow, Barack Obama went through his youth and early adulthood ( including getting a social security number, a passport, etc) EITHER
    a)without a valid birth certificate
    b)with a forged birth certificate back in the '70s

    Honestly, it astounds me how normally rational people can believe such nonsense.
     
  8. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    Perhaps because prior to 1972 you could obtain your SSN from any SS office and your SSN area number (the first 3 digits) would be for the state where that office was located.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2012
  9. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Is this "evidence" mounting amongst anyone other than conspiracy theorists who never believed he was born in the US to begin with?

    Actually, there is a perfectly reasonable explaination of this:
    From the Social Security Administration:
    From Snopes:
    If it wasn't a misprint, and was (as the conspiracy theorists suggest) instead all part of a massive plot by his grandmother (his SSN was issued back when he was 15 and living with his grandparents), what does the Connecticut SSN prove? Why didn't his devious grandparents steal a Hawaiian originating SSN?

    MAYBE, part of this VAST New World Order conspiracy extends all the way to Connecticut in 1975, where another sleeper agent for this Illuminati/Freemason/Trilateral Commission/Rothschild consortium filled out and mailed Obama's SSN application, but screwed up and forgot that their Manchurian Candiate is SUPPOSED to be born in Hawaii and not Connecticut. I am sure he paid for his error.

    That is NOT from his book. That is a quick blurb to promote his book written in a pamphlet published by his literacy-agency, Acton & Dystel. Furthermore, the blurb WAS NOT written by Obama. It was written by an agency assistant, Miriam Goderich. She has come out and stated that this was simply an error. Obama Literary Agent Responds to ‘Born in Kenya’ Bio: Nothing More Than a Fact Checking Error | Miriam Goderich | Breitbart | TheBlaze.com

    from Miriam Goderich:
     
  10. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    In the above post, literacy-agency=literary-agency.
     
  11. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    See this is the crap Obama did to himself.....why did he hide it so long? he shot himself in the foot on this one. My Dad was all for him untill he read about the issues about his BC. As a older American he asked the simple question why won't this guy release it which = he must be hiding something. Still to this day my father does not trust this guy.
     
  12. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    That's just it, he didn't do this to himself. He only obtained the long form birth certificate that he released in April of last year because his lawyers had to go to Hawaii and beg the Hawaiian government to violate state policy and release his long form birth certificate. As a matter of policy, they DO NOT release the long form birth certificate anymore. This was not a matter of him simply making a request. If an average person born in Hawaii wanted a copy of their long form birth certificate THEY COULD NOT GET ONE. The state of Hawaii, made an exception to their own rules, and released his long form birth certificate.

    My county, Cook County in Illinois, has (or at least had) the same policy. When I went to get a copy of my birth certificate for my passport back in 2004, they gave me something like a short form birth certificate. It was NOT a copy of my original long form birth certificate. At some point, they stopped releasing copies of original birth certificates and instead only released short form versions. Here is the thing, the short form is PERFECTLY VALID and acceptable everywhere. I was able to get a passport with no problem.

    This is where I condemn "news" sources like Fox News (of which I used to be a regular viewer). They KNOW that the rules of Hawaii state that only short form birth certificates can be released. Yet they continued to press this issue to make it seam like the president was hiding something. When his lawyers FINALLY were able to convince the Hawaiian government to violate their own rules, the folks at Fox said "what took you so long?"

    Do you see the implicit deception that was committed by these "news" sources? Regular, rational people start believing that Obama had access to this document all and just delayed in releasing it for political purposes. Meanwhile, the news organization that is promoting this myth KNOWS that as a matter of state regulation, he DID NOT have access to the document.

    b4cz28, you said that your mom was Dominican. What if you were born in a "short form" BC state like Hawaii and Illinois and someone questioned whether you were actually born here? Here is how it would go:

    b4cz28: "Here is a copy of my birth certificate stating that I was born in Texas."
    birther: "What the heck is that? That doesn't look like any birth certificate I have seen. That certianly isn't a copy of the original. You were born in the Dominican Republic, weren't you?"
    b4cz28: "What the heck are you talking about? That is the document the state gave me. They said that they no longer issue copies of the original birth certificate. This is all I can get."
    birther: "Just show us the original, and we will shut up."
    b4cz28: "I just told you, I CAN'T GET THE ORIGINAL"
    birther: "What are you hiding? You were born in Santo Domingo, weren't you?"
    Gov. Perry: "b4cz28 is right, we do not release the original anymore but just to make you happy, we went into our archives and saw the orignal and we certify that he was born in Texas."
    birther: "OMG, Gov Perry is part of the conspiracy too!!"
    fox news: "What is b4cz28 hiding? Just show us the birth certificate."
    b4cz28" "I just told you, I don't have access to the original. They state no longer issues it."
    Gov. Perry: "He's right, we don't release the original anymore."
    fox news: "Maybe b4cz28 IS hiding something, since he won't release the original."

    After b4cz28 sends a team of lawyers down to Texas to plead with them to violate their own rules, texas finally releases a copy of the ORIGINAL birth certificate.

    b4cz28" "Here, they made an exception and gave me a copy of the orignal. Are you guys satisfied?"
    birther: "IT'S A FAKE!!"
    fox news: "What took you so long?"
    b4cz28" smh
     
  13. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Still.....could have been handled better.
     
  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    You are right. He should have ignored it altogether and let the birthers squirm for all eternity. You have already demonstrated that he can do everything the right way and still face criticism for it. It would have been better if he never threw you a bone to begin with.
     
  15. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Sheriff Arpaio: Obama birth certificate a 'forgery' - Washington Times
     
  16. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    So a guy who is been under investigation for a year by the Obama administration's Justice Department is now claiming that Obama's birth certificate is a forgery?

    Here is the real deal. Arpaio's "evidence" is idiotic. It is a perfect example of someone who has no freaking clue about a technology thinking that they are an expert in the technology simply because they can turn the program on. In this case, we are talking about Adobe Illustrator.

    Here is his "evidence". When you open up the pdf of Obama's birth certificate in Adobe Illustrator, the information such as dates and other things can be moved around because they are layered. Our newly certified digital forensics expert Joe Arpaio says that this proves the document is fake since the original would not have multiple layers.

    Simply put, he is an idiot. The fact is that when a pdf is made and optimized the software often brakes the image up into layers. In fact, it is MORE likely to brake a document like a birth certificate into layers than some black and white typed page because of the greater shade variation (the preprinted words, the typed words, the stamped words, the hand written signature, etc).

    Here is an article from the National Review (a magazine that is, without question, NOT a friend of the Obama Administration) debunking this story.

    PDF Layers in Obama’s Birth Certificate - By Nathan Goulding - The Corner - National Review Online

    Here one (of several) video where a guy replicates this layered phenomena on another original document to prove that this claim is bunk:

    [video=youtube;XcWQw2AAIho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcWQw2AAIho&feature=colike[/video]


    This claim was pretty sad, even for the birthers.
     
  17. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything except this last sentence, I'd instead argue that it is the exact same kind of nonsense that should be expected from the birthers.
     
  18. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    Why did Obama say he was born in Kenya in another book?
     
  19. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    He didn't.
     
  20. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Your question presupposes something that isn't true. It is like me asking "Why does ryoder beat his wife?".

    This "book" you are referring to, is it the thing that Bruce mentioned in a previous post?

    To which I responded with:

    Ryoder, I respect what you have done academically and am impressed. You knocked out your MBA quicker than anyone I have ever heard of and are in a doctoral program. You are obviously very smart. Bruce has TWO masters degrees and is also in a doctoral program. He is obviously very smart.

    THAT is what scares the hell out of me. Until about a year ago, I really believed that these conspiracy theories were the domain only of the "tinfoil hat" crowd, and people who just weren't very educated. The fact that two obviously intelligent and educated people can have this type of misinformation is frightening. It means that there is some fundamental flaw in how information is being disseminated to the public. The accuracy filter seams to have been destroyed somewhere, and it is becoming increasingly difficult for people (even intelligent, educated people) to sort out factual truths from factual lies.

    I just want to reiterate. I DO NOT THINK YOU GUYS ARE STUPID. That is what is so confusing about this. I always have enjoyed reading Bruce's posts and his insight on different issues. I am just trying to figure out where the flaw in the information stream is occurring. I've met folks like this in real life, too. HIGHLY educated guys that still spout elements of a conspiracy theory that have been debunked months/years ago.

    This isn't about disagreeing with the President's policies. There are a TON of perfectly valid arguments for disagreeing with the President's foreign, domestic, social, and economic policies. This is about the promotion of factually incorrect statements about the POTUS. Furthermore, the absolute ease at which this conspiracies can be debunked makes it even more frightening that they still take hold amongst a portion of the American populace.

    It may be because folks don't realize the level of REAL fact checking that goes into professional journalism, and mistakingly place one article on some random website as having the same likelihood of truth as an article from an established newspaper with fact checking standards. Folks are not critically evaluating their source, which may include checking their source's source. Furthermore, the shear enthusism the conspiracy theorists have in spreading their falsehoods leads them to produce MASSIVE numbers of sites devoted to this topic, repeating these lies. These sites, in effect, drown out accurate information. Look up any of the myths. The conspiracy theorists' websites dwarf the mainstream sites.

    If you believe that Obama's Healthcare policy is a violation of state sovereignty and individual liberty, places and undue burdon on business, and will cause serious, long term, damage to the US healthcare system and the American economy, then there is room for a spirited and high quality debate.

    If, on the other hand, you believe that President Obama is a Kenyan born, Muslim sleeper agent attempting to turn the United States of America into a Communist regime that imposes Sharia law on all of its citizens, where the heck do we begin the conversation?
     

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