Thread: Remember Jackson State & Kent State

Let us pause for a moment of silence to remember the two dead and twelve wounded in the Vietnam draft riots at Jackson State University, May 14, 1970. Killed were Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. Wounded were Fonzie Coleman, Tuwaine Davis, Climmie Johnson, Leroy Kenter, Gloria Mayhorn, Andrea Reese, Patricia Ann Sanders, Stella Spinks, Lonzie Thompson, Vernon Steve Weakley, Redd Wilson Jr., and Willie Woodard.

Let us also pause for a moment to remember the four dead (and nine wounded) in Ohio from Kent State University , May 4, 1970. Killed were Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer, and William Schroeder. Wounded were Alan Canfora, John Cleary, Thomas Grace, Dean Kahler, Joseph Lewis , Donald Mackenzie, James Russell, Robert Stamps, and Douglas Wrentmore.

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Originally Posted by Ted Heiks

Let us pause for a moment of silence to remember the two dead and twelve wounded in the Vietnam draft riots at Jackson State University, May 14, 1970. Killed were Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. Wounded were Fonzie Coleman, Tuwaine Davis, Climmie Johnson, Leroy Kenter, Gloria Mayhorn, Andrea Reese, Patricia Ann Sanders, Stella Spinks, Lonzie Thompson, Vernon Steve Weakley, Redd Wilson Jr., and Willie Woodard.

From what I read the protesters brought that on themselves, they should have obeyed the authorities and found a better way to protest that was not a threat to the peace.

Originally Posted by thomaskolter

From what I read the protesters brought that on themselves, they should have obeyed the authorities and found a better way to protest that was not a threat to the peace.

You must have read some stuff indicating that standing around watching is a threat to peace!

"The Kent State shootings, also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre, occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The Guardsmen shot into the crowd 67 times for 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.

Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. However, other students who were shot had merely been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance."

This is from the Wikipedia article which appears to be nicely sourced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_Incident

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I recommend reading the FBI report. While some (all?) of the students might have been unarmed it wasn't a non-violent war protest. And considering the numbers of students I imagine that the questionably trained NG troops were out of their element.

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/kentstat.htm

interesting read.

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Originally Posted by -kevin-

I recommend reading the FBI report. While some (all?) of the students might have been unarmed it wasn't a non-violent war protest. And considering the numbers of students I imagine that the questionably trained NG troops were out of their element.

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/kentstat.htm

interesting read.

It's very doubtful that the 4 kids murdered had anything to do with violent activity. Two of the kids weren't even involved in the demonstration. True that the previous day (or two days earlier?) a building was burned. True that there was some rock throwing earlier. The murdered victims were all over 100 yards away. How many people do you know that can throw a rock over 100 yards?

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perhaps the Kent State version will provide some additional details:

http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

The reality is that we will never know how afraid the guardsmen were, or if they actually conspired to shoot, but considering the events and that the National Guard of the time period was not the Guard of today I am thankful that more folks didn't die (imagine if M-16s and machine guns would have been available as they are today).

This event is the classic two wrongs don't make a right and it cost these students their lives.

	Kent State University Kent State University Kent State offers online Master of Music in Music Education, an online RN to BSN degree, a MA in Journalism and an MA in Communications - Public Relations. Kent State is a very highly regarded, selective school with a long history for excellence. It is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized form of accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school.

FYI: For years, the higher-ups that were involved in the Kent State killings perjured themselves, insisted that there was no order to fire. They have now found a student who recorded the entire thing on camera from his dorm room, sent the recording to a technology company in California to have it digitally enhanced, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was an order to fire. Besides, doesn't it seem just a bit suspicious to think that there was no order to fire when the Guardsmen walked up a hill, turned around in unison, and proceeded to fire into a crowd from over a football field away?

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Originally Posted by Ted Heiks

FYI: For years, the higher-ups that were involved in the Kent State killings perjured themselves, insisted that there was no order to fire. They have now found a student who recorded the entire thing on camera from his dorm room, sent the recording to a technology company in California to have it digitally enhanced, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was an order to fire. Besides, doesn't it seem just a bit suspicious to think that there was no order to fire when the Guardsmen walked up a hill, turned around in unison, and proceeded to fire into a crowd from over a football field away?

Ted,

from purely a tactical perspective it doesn't make sense to engage from a position other than the top of the hill. 100 yards is close, not far, in the military world. I doubt that any firing order was issued, otherwise far more damage would have been done. But, there is a distanct possibility that a couple of individuals decided to fire thereby causing others to follow out of fear. The fact that a cease fire happened so soon leads me to believe no competent order to fire was given.

Keep in mind that the Mayor called for the Guard support due to the students' activities prior to the shooting. Had the students done as requested and disbanded, the shootings would not have had a venue. By not following instructions and numerous attempts to disban, the situation was escalated.

Regardless, your effort to remember these folks is notable and I sure don't want to drag your thread into a debate when your intention was good.

Best wishes,

Originally Posted by -kevin-

Ted,

from purely a tactical perspective it doesn't make sense to engage from a position other than the top of the hill. 100 yards is close, not far, in the military world. I doubt that any firing order was issued, otherwise far more damage would have been done. But, there is a distanct possibility that a couple of individuals decided to fire thereby causing others to follow out of fear. The fact that a cease fire happened so soon leads me to believe no competent order to fire was given.

Keep in mind that the Mayor called for the Guard support due to the students' activities prior to the shooting. Had the students done as requested and disbanded, the shootings would not have had a venue. By not following instructions and numerous attempts to disban, the situation was escalated.

Regardless, your effort to remember these folks is notable and I sure don't want to drag your thread into a debate when your intention was good.

Best wishes,

You doubt that there was an order to fire. OK. The video says otherwise. The book will be out this time next year (ca. May 4, 2010), just in time for the fortieth anniversary.

Originally Posted by Ted Heiks

You doubt that there was an order to fire. OK. The video says otherwise. The book will be out this time next year (ca. May 4, 2010), just in time for the fortieth anniversary.

Where can we see the video? Have you seen it?

Originally Posted by -kevin-

from purely a tactical perspective it doesn't make sense to engage from a position other than the top of the hill. 100 yards is close, not far, in the military world.

When you are supposedly fearing for your life it doesn't make sense to go to the top of the hill before shooting. You shoot when you fear for your life. They claimed that they had to shoot because they feared for their life from kids throwing rocks from 100 yards away. The distance of 100 yards is very far away when you're talking about people throwing rocks. True that it is close if both parties have high powered rifles but that was not the situation in this case. There weren't more killed because apparently some shot their rifles into the air or into the ground instead of into the students.

Originally Posted by bmills072200

Where can we see the video? Have you seen it?

I've not seen the video yet and I am not sure whether it has been published yet. I was, however, in Kent, Ohio, on May 4, 2009 and one of the speakers mentioned said video.

I was a young adult at that time, also actively protested LBJ's/Nixon's ghastly war, and will never forget the Time mag cover of the horrified girl bending over a student who was dead, blood running from his/her head, a stream gushing down the street. I wasn't in Ohio but saw and read everything about it; that tragedy was entirely unnecessary. In the late 60s and early 70s I believe the government was surely on a rampage to squash our dissent against the war. Kent State , as well as the instant execution of a purported "traitor" in Vietnam, will go down in infamy. To imply there was justification for killing four unarmed students by the military is to impugn the students who died and the nature of the protests and is a total misunderstanding of the culture at the time. The Vietnam war, and all of the young men who were drafted, served and died, was a defining era for us early baby boomers. We will never forget. We will also never trust our government again. Think of the trauma of 9-11 and then stretch it out for many years and 58,000 dead in our military, then South Vietnam was taken over by the Communists anyway. What a waste. What a tragedy.

This cannot be dismissed as "the students should have obeyed the authorities." At the time our entire country was divided over the war. LBJ chose not to run again for President because of the Vietnam quagmire. Richard Nixon resigned the presidency because of Watergate and that was related to Vietnam. Let's not be revisionists, let's understand the culture at the time this happened. You need to put this in the context of our country's history . All of us who were amongst the older baby boomers had friends and relatives who were drafted, served, and I can confidently say that most of us know of friends/relatives who died for that quagmire.

Thanks Ted, we needed to be reminded.

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Originally Posted by cutedeedle

To imply there was justification for killing four unarmed students by the military is to impugn the students who died and the nature of the protests

To imply that the shootings were intentionally engineered by some malign conspiracy is to impugn things too.

I think that those increasingly distant events were an unfortunate tragedy all around. Mistakes in judgement were made on both sides.

Thanks Ted, we needed to be reminded.

Not really. There's really no need for anyone to drag iconic events from out of the past in hopes of keeping feelings of social alienation alive.

Originally Posted by BillDayson

There's really no need for anyone to drag iconic events from out of the past in hopes of keeping feelings of social alienation alive.

History , sir, is philosophy teaching by example and those who are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it. We need to remember the past so that these things shall never happen again!

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