Did Bush Cross the Line?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Laser200, Dec 17, 2005.

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  1. Laser200

    Laser200 Guest

    It is wrong for the NSA to listen or monitor you without due cause.

    Did this administration commit an illegal crime by authorizing the monitoring of US citizens?
     
  2. Commit a crime? No.

    I'm sure the administration toed the line very carefully, adhering to the letter of the law (if not the spirit).

    Was it wrong? In my opinion, yes.

    Was it unexpected, given the Bush administration's approach to fighting the "war" on terrorism? No.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  3. PhD2B

    PhD2B Dazed and Confused

    If the administration was able to stop something bad from happening as a result of the monitoring: terrific. If the administration did nothing and something bad happened as a result of the administration not knowing, then the same people that are complaining about the monitoring would be up in arms about the administration not doing anything.

    This is definitely a catch-22 situation and, in this post 911 era, I would rather be safe than sorry. The same people that want to destroy our way of life as we know it are using all of these wonderful liberties of ours to their advantage.
     
  4. BinkWile

    BinkWile New Member

    The issue is legal precedent. The president is walking a very fine line on this one, and in basic terms, yes this is illegal, and yes he and anyone who carried out his orders broke the law.

    However, these are unusual times, and therefore I WANT MY PRESIDENT TO SPY ON SUSPECTED TERRORISTS.

    However, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that this is done legally. According to some legal experts I heard on the news, all the president needed to do is go to a secret federal court and get a warrant, which would take on average an hour.

    If the government starts spying on people without due process that opens up a pandora's box that I don't want to go near.
     
  5. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    The problem here is that NSA is not legally authorized to do domestic surveillance or spying, period. Furthermore, it serves only a marginal purpose to allow the agency to do so as the FBI already has the authority and the efforts required to get a warrant are marginal at best. According to sources the FBI can get a “super-secret” surveillance warrant for spying on suspected terrorists in less than 10 minutes.

    Why does the president must push the envelope on this issue is incomprehensible to me. Maybe, someone can find a legal rationale for his actions, but I can not figure this one out.

    God bless Americans!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2005
  6. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Bush this, Bush that. The world didn't begin with Bush.

    ECHELON
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    None of us knows exactly what we would do if we were the President and had the security of America in our care.

    Senator Harry Reid, the minority leader, said liberty is more important than security.

    Without security, there is no liberty!
     
  8. No it didn't. And it won't end with him either.

    But, let's ask ourselves.... Are we better off today than we were 8 years ago, when the supposedly horrible BJ-receiving Clinton was in charge of our collective destiny?

    I can think of many categories where the answer would have to be "no".

    1. Insurance costs - most of us will recall the first time insurance started seeming kind of funny. Like, high deductibles, not wanting to pay legitimate claims, challenges to payments, exponentially rising costs, etc. That year was 2001, and the situation has worsened since that time. Now, insurance is very high, you are dropped if you make even ONE claim, and everyone is running scared and keeps paying and paying for something that really is not the same as it used to be. Instead of insurance, policies today should be called "extortion". Has Bush done anything to improve this situation and take pity on the poor and middle class Americans held hostage by this disgrace?

    2. Protection from debt - the final "safety net" for Americans in financial trouble used to be Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. Well, not anymore - Bush managed to get even that taken away because of supposed "abuses". Who benefits from this? Not the average American, but the ultra-rich who support him.

    3. Overall security and safety - are we safer today than we were 8 years ago? Really? How much blood needs to be still shed before we can say we are safe again? Will that ever happen? Certainly Bush didn't start this progression towards war and violence, but he has done nothing to mitigate its effects either.

    4. Jobs and salaries - 20 years ago, when my first children were born, I was making a salary in the low $30K range. My wife also worked. We had everything we needed, were comfortable, and brought our children into a world where the expectation was that they would succeed, and we would grow steadily more prosperous. Now, 20 years later, my salary is in the mid 100K range, and I have less than I had before, my kids are almost starving to death in meaningless jobs (with or without degrees), and they have to bunk up with 4 or 5 other young adults just to pay their rent and heat. While Bush is not solely responsible for this situation, the acceleration towards globalization and the gleeful rush towards outsourcing good jobs overseas by his supporters has not helped. Where will it end? Where will our children find their own prosperity? Will they be doomed to a life of apartment living with multiple families like Czechoslovakia in the 1970s? Is that America's future too?

    Stop and think next time you vote. Voting for Bush and Republicans is akin to pushing the gas pedal to the floor of the ultimate demise of the American middle class.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2005
  9. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Okay, you go immediately and emotionally from the NSA to some partisan comparison between Bush and Clinton. Can you stop emoting long enough to stay on topic?

    Way off topic but then you're emoting.

    Nothing new about insurance cost complaints.

    Way off topic but then you're emoting.

    There were abuses.

    Not as far off topic but pretty far. But then, you're emoting.

    What should he have done to "mitigate its effects?"

    Same thing I've heard through my life. The good old days when the LaSalle ran great.

    If you are living less well on your current income then you are doing something very wrong.

    Nothing new about rising property values causing "bunking up" in populous areas.

    Precisely what "meaningful jobs" should your children have? Be specific, please.

    Sheer crap.

    For the umpteenth freaking time, I'm not a Republican or a Conservative. The next time you are compelled to destroy a thread with your spleen venting, do it with someone else.
     
  10. gkillion

    gkillion New Member

    The same people who complained that Bush didn't "connect the dots" are the same people who are complaining now that he is trying to.

    Frankly, I'm more concerned with who the traitor is who leaked this top secret information. I don't hear any cries from the Left for an independent investigation into this.
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    scary

    Them illegal crimes is the worstest crimes of all.






    Carthage must be destroyed.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Did Bush Cross the Line?

    The reason is that most on the left trust the enemies of America more than they trust their own government. The see America as the enemy.

    Most on the left have complete faith and trust in the terrorists. They think if America would leave Iraq and Afghanistan, apologize to the terrorists, and say "We're sorry, please don't hurt us or attack us again," they will accept our apology and never bother us again.

    Yeah, right!

    Also, since someone brought up Clinton, where was the left when Clinton bombed Bosnia? Where was the left when Clinton bombed Iraq and talked about America not being willing to allow him to possess WMD's?

    Where was the left when Clinton bombed Sudan?
     
  13. Khan

    Khan New Member

  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The liberals and those on the left seem to forget that Clinton also spied on people.
     
  15. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Re: scary

     
  16. gkillion

    gkillion New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Did Bush Cross the Line?

    I saw Harry Reid on one of the Sunday shows this weekend. Aside from not giving direct answers to any questions, at least twice he stated that he does not support the terrorists.

    What's sad about this is that he feels like he has to remind us whose side he is on.

    I'm still not so sure though.:rolleyes:
     
  17. No, I think I'll keep doing it with you - since in your very defensiveness about my analysis I clearly have touched a raw nerve. The truth is a bit uncomfortable at times, isn't it?
     
  18. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    He who would trade liberty for security deserves neither!
     
  19. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    AW, HECK! LET'S JUST BRING BACK THOSE GOOD OLD PURITANS OF THE 1600S AND THEY'LL TEACH US HOW TO HAVE EVERYBODY SPYING ON EVERYBODY!
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    And if you or any member of your family were harmed by a terrorist and some spying could have prevented it, you'd be the first one to complain the govenment should have done more to protect us!
     
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