Are young veterans of the Iraq war on campus received well or not? While neither loved nor hated, according to this piece, they feel shunned and indulge in self-censoring - only disclosing their service status to those likely to be unoffended. "Just ask Armand McCormick, 23, a student at the University of Northern Iowa. "While walking to class one day, McCormick stopped to listen to a speaker during an antiwar student rally. When he challenged the protestor’s arguments, the 'peace' activist sneered, 'The Iraqis don’t want us there. If you think the war is okay, then why don’t you go and serve!' "There was an obvious problem with the protestor’s retort: He had no clue who he was talking to — -Silver Star recipient Marine corporal Armand McCormick. "'I’ve had a few conversations about [the War on Terror] in the liberal classrooms I go to everyday,' said McCormick. “A lot of the time I just look at them and tell them that they don’t have any clue what they’re talking about, because all they do is listen to liberal news. I always tell them, ‘If you don’t experience something, how in the hell can you say what will happen?’ "As Corporal McCormick rightly points out, his classmates’ reliance upon the elite mainstream media all but ensures that they are unfamiliar with the jaw-dropping acts of heroism he performed on March 25, 2003, in Ad Diwuniyah, Iraq...." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/hall_schweizer200508290810.asp - - - - - - Another war hero is dicussed. of course, this story doesn't rise above anecdote, and the situation is undoubtedly differeny in conservative bastions like Mormon BYU in Utah. Yet the fact remains that right-wing rebouts are very rare in higher ed, making above accounts likely more typical than not. -Orson
Part of the problem will be that the Army and Marine Corps are volunteer organizations (at least until you've signed up, that is!) I find that fewer and fewer people I know have ever served. My Honorable Discharge certifiacte is an object of curiosity among my co workers. The Israeli approach (which wouldn't work for us) is that EVERYBODY (well, Jews and Druze) serves. There is no ignorance about military service in Israeli and there is no ignorance about the critical importance of national defense. President Truman was right; we NEED universal military training if only for one year. Being a citizen isn't just about rights it's also about duties and duties, folks, should not be seen as optional.
Conscription is not the answer I have no interest in my children being conscripted and put in harm's way so they can be "educated" about someone else's sense of duty. The goal should be the opposite -- that as few people as possible make those sorts of sacrifices. If there aren't enough people willing to volunteer for military service, perhaps that's a wake up call that the missions the military is given should be better related to clear and present dangers to the U.S. -=Steve=-
S'cuze me. EVERY citizen enjoys the benefits of living here. Defending the country (and I MEAN defending, not making war for corporate profit) is NOT "someone else's sense of duty", it is the obligation of ALL able citizens. I have zero patience with "letting the other guy" do it any more than I would consider such an attitude about paying taxes. I should also say that I have almost zero patience with consciencious objectors. There is a time for peace and a time for war. I do grant that there are cases where alternative service is as valuable as uniformed service would be and I have no objection to allowing such an alternative. But if you live here, you contribute to defense. Period. Not very left wing liberal of me, is it? And yes, I have served. U.S. Navy and Navy Reserve. As to those Ultra Orthodox Israeli groups, it is true that some claim a religious exemption (on the grounds that the State of Israel itself shouldn't exist, no less) but many do their military service just like any other citizen. If I were Prime Minister, I would end the religious exemption once and for all. Lots of Israelis feel the same way, I promise you.
S'cuze me. EVERY citizen enjoys the benefits of living here. Defending the country (and I MEAN defending, not making war for corporate profit) is NOT "someone else's sense of duty", it is the obligation of ALL able citizens. I have zero patience with "letting the other guy" do it any more than I would consider such an attitude about paying taxes. As valuable as it may be, I see defense as a service, no different from any other. Firefighters and police provide valuable services as well, ones that save many lives every year, but no one suggests that everyone need be a cop or a volunteer firefighter, or even to donate to the local volunteer fire brigade (although I've at least done that). I should also say that I have almost zero patience with consciencious objectors. There is a time for peace and a time for war. I do grant that there are cases where alternative service is as valuable as uniformed service would be and I have no objection to allowing such an alternative. But if you live here, you contribute to defense. Period. Not very left wing liberal of me, is it? No, nor very libertarian. But hey, different people believe different things. So out of curiosity, how would you feel about a Heinleinian system in which military service were voluntary but only veterans got to vote? And yes, I have served. U.S. Navy and Navy Reserve. Not surprising -- you don't strike me as a hypocrite. Probably equally unsurprising that I never joined the military. -=Steve=-
SteveFoerster, Like a service. Like firefighting or law enforcement. Well, now that you put it that way, I guess that I can see your point. But dash it all! It ISN'T like that! Is it? Is the burden of separation from one's family, financial loss, and physical risk to the point of death (I was never shot at, thank God) REALLY a professional service? Isn't it something more? Well, you've made me think about it, anyway. And no, I would not require military service to vote. We are yet a representative democracy and those legions who DON'T agree with me must have the same political rights that I enjoy, or what's the point?
Actually people are still debating exactly what could constitute the requisite federal service needed to earn on the franchise. Heinlein was a retired Navy Captain by the way. http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm
Actually people are still debating exactly what could constitute the requisite federal service needed to earn on the franchise. I hadn't realized that there was so much commentary, although I guess I'm not surprised. I meant it in the context of my discussion with nosborne, though. Heinlein was a retired Navy Captain by the way. I knew he was a Navy officer (especially after reading the story in which time travelers shoot him with penicillin so he can have been promoted to Admiral in time to deal with the Soviets), but are you sure he reached Captain? He'd only been commissioned for five years when he was discharged. -=Steve=-
Medically unfit for service Steve, You are correct. Thanks. http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/biographies.html
I agree with nosborne - we need a universal draft.... Do we ever need it..... All of my own kids (and everyone they know) has grown up in an over-indulged culture of consumption and supposed "rights", but no sense of duty either taught by school, parents, or church. Oh sure, we did our best with it, but how well is it going to work when all the other messages kids get these days are about slacking off, getting rich quick, and are SO decidedly anti-military/anti-male/pro-feminist? All of our national icons (Washington/Jefferson) are derided as "dead white guys" by the PC elite in academia, while our school age children learn about esoteric sidebars to history ("native American" culture, "African-American traditions", etc., etc. - not much time is spent on the Civil War anymore, and for boys to even make a hand drawing of a soldier holding a gun is tantamount to expulsion in some school districts....). YES we need a draft, if for no other reason than to shake up this entire viper's brood generation we've created of baby-boomer over-indulged spoiled brats who won't lift a finger even in their OWN defense, much less that of others..... This has to stop!
Spoiled brats? Hmm. I'm a member of the so-called "Generation X", and part of this has some merit to it. I will agree that many feel they are "entitled" to more than they are worth, and do not expect to work hard to get something they want. However, you could say the same things about a lot of people in the 35-50 crowd that you can about the 18-34 group. Quite simply, there are a lot of Americans that do not understand they have to work to achieve something. Yet, at the same time, I do not believe that we should force people to enlist in the military to learn someone else's sense of duty. This is something that they will have to find own their own. Which it appears they are doing. I've never served in the military, but that has not prevented me from working 80 hours per week, working as a youth pastor, coaching a U-18 hockey team, or personally sponsoring a team of underprivelged kids out of my own pocket because they did not have the money for equipment, jerseys, travel expenses, or tournament entry fees. I'm not saying "look what I did", but my point is that I'm a member of generation X, and I clearly have a sense of duty, and I did not have to learn it from the military. I would also note that I do not see the generation as "anti-military". While there are demonstrations on college campuses against the war, and in some areas recruiters are having problems getting on campus, it's anti-war protest. There are a lot of people both young and old that disagree not only with the current war in Iraq, but with our overall foreign policy. I can't speak of what happened in other areas after 9/11, but I do know the local recruiters office was bombarded by young people wanting to join the service, and fight for the freedom that they cherished. Not because they were required to, because they wanted to out of a sense of pride, passion, and patriotism. You talk about your kids, and the friends they have grown up with, but let me ask, is it possible that you are out of touch with the new generation? No offense intended as I've read in other post you work 80 hours a week, and that is respected, but how much time does that leave you to get to know your kids, their friends, and even if you know them extremely well, what about the other members of this generation, or members of "Generation X" across the country? Not don't jump to conclusions as I don't want you to think I'm saying that you do not know your kids, or their friends, etc, however, it also does not mean they represent the mainstream for "Generation X". Here is an article that cites: http://www.worldvolunteerweb.org/dynamic/cfapps/news/news2.cfm?ArticlesID=946 Or, this article that cites: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050419/news_1n19service.html This is a case in some area, but certainly not all. I remember learning a great deal about the founding fathers in my American History classes in both junior high, and high school. I remember my physics teacher did not only teach us Physics, but they would should get involved in our community and make a difference in the lives of others. Then, my Algebra teacher taught us not only about the importance of math, but also of his experiences in the jungles of Vietnam. You would be amazed how few people actually talked in his class, not because he was a strict disciplinarian (which he wasn't), but out of respect for him. My World History teacher taught us we need to know our American History, but also the importance of World History to understand different cultures, religions, and how the rest of the world lives, and how fortunate we are to live in America, and why. Oh, and I cannot forget my English teacher that encouraged us to volunteer in our community, and because of her example I did. I held a job, kept a 4.0 grade point average, and spent roughly 300 hours doing community service in my senior year of High School. I can't speak for all schools, but I could introduce you to many other people, from other schools that had the same experience in High School. I mention that Jr. High and High School because you mention school districts, and the problems therein. I also believe that is important for us to understand "African-American traditions", and the traditions of "Native Americans", as it gives us a better knowledge of our true American history, and how to better understand those around us. I'm not saying there are not problems with the system, nor can everything be learned from a book, nor should it be. There are many times I look around, and I wonder if we as a nation really understand one another. I'm not saying they we need to teach certain traditions and avoid others, but could a class on world cultures really hurt a young American? Hardly, in fact, I believe it gives them a better understanding of the world, and of how lucky they are to be here. So, we need to require military service of roughly 22 million people between the ages of 18-25, because the schools, churches, and parents have failed them? I've noticed in this thread there is a lot of talk about people "defending our country", but who determines what that actually means. There are many that believe that we are defending our country by invading Iraq, and we must continue to defend our proud nation by invading Iran, Syria, North Korea, and coming to the rescue of Taiwan in the event that China decides it wants to reclaim the island. I certainly do not want to speak for you, as I know you are very intelligent and can speak on your own, but I certainly do not think that asking everyone between the ages of 18-25 to serve in the military to defend our country, with, for example, the current president laying out the agenda is in our nations best interest.
(..continued) I believe the military is a professional service just like police, firefighters, and so on. The military does not need everyone, nor can they use everyone. The military needs professional volunteers that are willing to serve their country, but at the same time we need volunteers in other areas too. I'm 24 years old, and when I graduated I was contacted by the military recruiters. I spoke with them breifly, and told them of my medical history, and they told me that I would not qualify for service. Every branch said the same thing, but they also told me there are other ways to volunteer my services to my country, and all forms of service are greatly appreciated. I remember speaking to one recruiter who was getting ready to leave the office, and I was his last call of the day. After he informed me I could not enlist I told him of a friend that was looking at enlisting, and gave him his information. I ended up having coffee with the guy one-on-one, and then on another occassion bought lunch for an Air Force recruiter. They have tough jobs, and I will say that I do not believe that our men and women in the military get enough credit, and they certainly our not given the benefits that they deserve (in my opinon). I used to go have coffee in the mornings with a group of soldiers that fought in Korea, and I was working on compliling a book with some of their stories for them, until my work hours changed and I was no longer able to meet with them due to extensive daily travel. Oh, in case you are wondering I have a seizure disorder that runs in the family. My dad, my sister, and grandparents. I've been hospitalized a lot when I was younger because of these problems, and have to be careful what I do in many cases. I'm also borderline bi-polar, and I suffer from deep manic depression and bouts of paranoia. I'm physically frail, and I've tried everything. I have to stay inside where there is a hard gust of wind...;-) Yet, it does not keep me from volunteering my time, energy, and money to helping those who are less fortunate, and helping my beloved nations. I may not have flown F-18 over Baghdad, nor have I ever loaded B-52 on an aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean, I've never jumped out of an airplane at 10,000 feet with a eighty-pound pack on my back, and I haven't driven a hot armored tank across the barren desert wasteland in the Middle East. Yet, while there are something I cannot do, there are many things I can. I honestly believe there are problems with some of the people in my genearion, but let's not kid ourselves. There are always problems with every generation, and there always will be. In fact, Adam and Eve had a problem or two with their son Cain, but looking forward I think things have turned out pretty well. Quite frankly, I'm very optimistic about my generation. I was going to post a link to an article here that I cannot presently locate, but it said that "Generation X" has more volunteers than any other previous generation. I've been on trips where the youth would go out on their spring break, and help rebuild someone's house, because the person could not afford to. We've bought food and taken it to people who did not have any, and left it on the door step. They came to the door, but they never saw anyone, just the boxes of food on their door step. Duty should not be learned from the military, and I don't like the word duty anyway. It implies that they need to do something that they don't want to do. We need people in all walks of life working with passion doing what they love to do, and doing a service everyone benefits from. We see this from vets, doctors, lawyers, the local grocer, etc,. We want people living the American dream as that's what America is all about. However, we should not want the government teaching them what is right and wrong, or what they should be doing with their lives. This is the job with parents, teachers, and churches. Yet, should the government intervene when they believe the private sector has failed? Take a look at how many people across the nation are volunteering to help with the situation in New Orleans. They are rich and poor, young and old, and I would love to see more people get involved, and I wish I could do more, but right now I cannot. Yet, the fact that I cannot go to Iraq does not make me a bad American, nor does it make someone a bad American who protest the war at a peace rally. I find it ironic how many people are willing to say the same things about Gen-X that were said about them during the Vietnam War. There are some problems, and on that we do agree, yet, dare I say that history could look back 50 years from now, and call it the greatest generation? At the rate it is going 50 years from now it could be renamed "Generation Volunteer"
Hey GOALIE.... sorry for raggin' on you! Hey there GOALIE..... First of all, thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking response as an upstanding member of "Generation X"..... Also, my apologies for being so hard on your entire generation, extrapolating my own frustrations with my kids and their friends on "all of you"..... sorry!!! I was ranting, as I am sometimes prone to do on this board. That being said, I also want to state to everyone that I love my kids dearly, and respect their choices in life - it just bothers me when the general attitude always seems to be "looking for an easy way" or a handout rather than any sense of national service or duty. But maybe I'm all wrong about that.... I don't know, I've not grown up the way they have (privilege, absentee parents who work too hard, money showered on them/gifts as "replacement love", etc....). Your words about "spending time with my kids" really hit home. I wish I could spend more time, and if I made different choices probably would and will regret it someday that I worked too much instead of really trying to get to know them as people. It is also quite possible that my rather narrow view of privileged upper middle class kids and their friends is not truly representative of the attitude of your generation as a whole. So maybe I don't really know them, or this generation at all..... and much to my regret, since you all have so much to offer the world. Thanks again....
One of the best comments ever made on this forum. Your post was extremely positive. It sounds to me like you are winning that particular battle. Peace, Dave C.
