Sounds about right. I completely agree with what the guy was trying to accomplish (i.e., his underlying message); but there is a right way and a wrong way to effect change, and committing multiple counts of arson and conspiracy isn't the right way. Plus, from what I know of this guy, it's apparently quite true that he's scheming and arrogant and disdainful of the law... and of society in general. Though the five years that his attorneys requested would have probably been more than enough, he's a borderline sociopath who's getting roughly what I believe he deserves... which I'm guessing is coming as something of a surprise to some around here who know my left-leaning tendencies... ...particularly because the reason he's getting eight years instead of five is because he was trying to influence public opinion by what he was doing. That suggests that he's getting three years in prison for exercising his constitutional right to free speech. With that I do have a problem. The guy said he wants nothing more than to be a physicist. Last time I checked, there was no good character requirement or moral turpitude prohibition for physicists. He'll have plenty of time (around 6 years of actual time served) to get whatever additional education he needs to be a physicist by distance learning from his prison cell. Thereafter, I'm quite certain he would be somewhat more attractive as a potential employee in the world of physics than would most ex-cons. I just don't have alot of sympathy for the guy... although a year or two in prison (rather than six to eight) probably would have been more than enough to get the job done. Actually, ten years of probation; and a year or two of community service doing something to teach him something about U.S. property rights, and better ways to protest, and his obligations under the implied social contract in general -- and a felony record for life, of course -- probably would have done it quite nicely without any prison time... and were I the judge (and had I the discretion), that's alot closer to what I would have handed down as a sentence. But that's just me.
Gosh, you mean that his actions were not political speech protected under the First Amendment? Will he at least get to finish his PhD in Physics while at Iron Bars Hotel so that he can be a useful member of society when they cut him loose? Any place that would take him as a DL Professor of Physics if he finishes his PhD before he gets out?
Re: Re: Student gets 8 years for SUV vandalism I mean that the underlying point he was making most certainly was... that is, if he'd just stood up on a soapbox and yelled it instead of vandalizing cars and setting them on fire. He should be penalized for the criminality, not the message. The three extra years are really all I'm questioning on those grounds. I certainly hope so. What? You'd prefer that he didn't? Or even after he gets out... makes no difference. And are you asking if I know of a school that would hire him? Of course not. Why would I know something like that off the top of my head? By your question, do you mean to convey that there is none anywhere out there that would? If so, I assure you that you're mistaken. But let's say you're not. Then what's your point? The six years he will have served by then will not have been enough for you? You'd prefer that no one hire him; that he just becomes a homeless guy, shuffling around in shadows in some metropolis for a half century or so and then just dies on the street? Would that better satisfy your sense of justice? What would you propose instead: That his education and his dreams be flushed down the toilet and that a mind capable of a PhD in physics should never be permitted to realize its potential just because the guy's immature and misguided and has a mild personality disorder that will likely abate as he ages? So it's never possible to repay one's debt to society, eh? Never?
We've all known brilliant people who couldn't fit into society. Consider the Unibomber (Ted Kaczynski). Sociopaths have no place in society. I hope he serves his full sentence (chic-left, pseudo-inellectual dirtbag that he is). I've had a lot of experience with borderline eco-terrorists. Most are from very wealthy families. My theory is that they're guilt-ridden liberals. I know of one stereotypical Earth First! type girl from Marin County, CA who literally got her pants hung up on a fence surrounding a bunch of logging equipment that she and her fellow eco-freaks vandalized beyond repair. Her buddies abandoned her to be caught by the cops while they ran for the hills. The bill came to $900,000. The judge ordered that $900,000 of her one-million dollar trust fund be turned over to the company they hit, with the other $100,000 given to the state for court costs. She squealed like a pig and cursed the judge. So he gave her another thrity days to cool her heels. THAT'S how we deal with eco-terrorists in the South. But hey, daddy has probably replaced all the money by now. She's probably marching around nude now with the PETA wackos, trying to get people to stop drinking milk.
Re: Re: Re: Student gets 8 years for SUV vandalism Actually, DesElms, I was hoping that: (1) he would get to finish his PhD even while behind bars and (2) he would find a physics professorship one day, certainly after he gets out, and maybe even by DL while in the big house. But I suppose I can forgive you for misreading my intentions since a previous post of mine seemed less than charitable to 134 prisoners who died in a fire (even though, in that post, my real point was that those prisoners dying in a fire was not an example of state oppression since the prisoners started the fire). As to the question of whether there were any DL Professor of Physics positions for him, I was wondering whether: (1) any physicists on board knew of such for this troubled young man and (2) whether any department chairs would opine as to whether they would hire a former guest of the state as a professor.
Originally posted by jugador We've all known brilliant people who couldn't fit into society. Consider the Unibomber (Ted Kaczynski). Ted, If you don't want people to misread your intentions then perhaps you should qualify outrageous statements like the one above. We all know about Kaczynski's political manifesto but you just can't throw out provocative one-liners and not expect readers to speculate on your motives and intentions. If I can offer an analogy, when Time named Adolf Hitler to the #3 slot for "Man of the Century", imagine the fallout if they didn't explain the rationale for such a selection (notoriety, impact on millions, WW II, fascism, resultant Cold War, etc.) and just named him #3 without further comment.
William Cottrell case Cottrell was convicted in U.S. District Court and sentenced by the trial judge following a pre-sentence investigation conducted by U.S. Parole and Probation. The District Court judge holds a lifetime appointment and presumably isn't swayed by public opinion or political considerations. When viewed from that perspective, Cottrell received an appropriate sentence. The part about him influencing public opinion is potentially troubling. However, in this particular case it sounds more like he was trying to scare and intimidate people to come around to his point of view on the whole environmental issue rather than through convince people through more acceptable means. I'm generally sympathetic to environmentalists but these types of actions by a handful of extremists cast a large shadow on the entire movement.
This shouldn't come as a surprise. Federal courts are almost always more harsh than state courts when it comes to sentencing. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Re: Re: Student gets 8 years for SUV vandalism I just don't have alot of sympathy for the guy... although a year or two in prison (rather than six to eight) probably would have been more than enough to get the job done. Actually, ten years of probation; and a year or two of community service doing something to teach him something about U.S. property rights, and better ways to protest, and his obligations under the implied social contract in general -- and a felony record for life, of course -- probably would have done it quite nicely without any prison time... and were I the judge (and had I the discretion), that's alot closer to what I would have handed down as a sentence. But that's just me. [/B][/QUOTE] I tend to agree with you on this point. This sentence seems a little harsh, and seems to go beyond what many rapists serve in this country. Like you, I agree with this young man's message. However, he could have handled it in a better fashion. On the flip side of this argument, sentencing in such a manner will expose him to many adverse condtions while behind bars, such as sodomy/rape, then he will really become a danger to society when he gets out. Just a few thoughts, Abner
Re: Re: Re: Student gets 8 years for SUV vandalism Yes, that's exactly what I think about and consider in virtually all sentencing situations. Sadly, the retributive mandatory sentencing people would rather punish than rehabilitate; and want to take the easy route in any case. They just throw money at it... but heaven forbid it be for programs that can turn lives around; oh, no... rather, the money they throw at the problem is for more prisons. Ugh. Goddon'tgetmestarted.
And we know what happened to that cockatoo. This fellow's doing the time doesn't make whole the victims of his crime but makes holes to money-fill for vehicle repair and prisoner maintenance. I'd have kept most of the punishment in the recompense of the victims.
SUV Vandalism or Arson? The problem Cottrell has is that he wasn't convicted of "vandalizing SUVs" but rather arson and conspiracy. Arson is a crime of violence. Arsonists are dangerous people who set fires that they, by definition, can't control. The reason that the arson statutes tend to be so harsh is that more often than not, the consequences of arson result in the death and serious bodily injury to unintended and innocent individuals. If all Cottrell did was damage SUVs, he would more likely faced minimal jail time ("a split sentence"), supervised release with electronic monitoring later downgraded to regular probation, a stiff fine and a permanent record as a convicted felon. That would be appropriate if the arson wasn't involved. Unfortunately for Cottrell, when two co-conspirators showed up with Molotov's cocktails, he apparently didn't have the common sense to end his participation in this scheme. This made him a member of a conspiracy to commit arson. Hence, Cottrell is facing the reality of 8 years incarceration instead of something lighter. A quick check of the Federal sentencing guidelines show that Cottrell could have gotten as much as 20 years depending upon several factors. Hopefully, he will be able to complete his Ph.D. via DL and turn his life around upon release.
Good! There is a difference between protesting and purposely destroying the property of others. In CA, his 8 year sentence is automatically cut in half so he will get only 4 years. He will have something to think about while thinking about not picking up the soap and avoiding Bubba in the shower. (sorry, I don't feel sorry for convicts) (no, we don't need more prisons, we need more education and alternatives -- chain gangs anyone??) I am wondering what MJ will do in prison once that POS is convicted?
Back On the Chain Gang? While I'm sure the source is not likely to be considered among the most prestigious journalistic endeavours in the country, I do yet neverthess offer up the following from the _Ottawa County (Ohio) News Herald_ (May 17, 2005): Chain gang revived by Butler County sheriff Hamilton - Black and white stripes are back in vogue for Butler County prisoners now that the sheriff has resurrected work gangs of shackled inmates to pick up litter along ditches. Butler County Sheriff Rick Jones, who has been in office five months, says he hopes the inmate work program that began last Monday will make the county cleaner and inmates more productive. "It is going to be controversial, and I'm OK with that," Jones said. "In my chain gangs, nobody is going to be mistreated, but they are going to have to work." Joe Weedon, spokesman for the American Correctional Association, said inmates are used for community service elsewhere, and escapes are rare. Chris Link, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio, said she sees no problem with the program, except the term "chain gang." "It sounds ... a little headline-grabbing," Link said. "There are plenty of prison programs that involve hard work, but the language certainly conjures up very negative pictures." Jones said lower-level offenders already work in programs that don't require chains. The new program involves medium-security offenders, volunteers, who are linked to other inmates to keep them from running away and to teach them teamwork. "You're going to have to learn to work with the other people that you're on the gang with," Jones said. "When the chain moves, you have to move." Because of prisoner abuse, most chain gangs were disbanded across the United States by the 1950s. Ten years ago, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., resurrevted the idea. He supports Jones' program. "I have to commend him for at least taking the initiative and trying to do something," Arpaio told the Cincinnati Enquirer. Butler County Commissioner Mike Fox wants to expand the program to make it mandatory for all able-bodied inmates, giving them jobs such as sorting recyclables that could generate revenue. "When you come to jail, it's not a place to kick backand relax," Fox said. "You'll be expected to work, you'll be expected to contribute, and we're going to get some value out of your time - and the money that the taxpayers spend." The county spends about $25,000 to $35,000 a year to house, feed and care for each inmate, Fox said.
