The democratic left lost the presidential election in November, and here they are losing the election in Iraq. Naysayers among the democratic left have suggested for months the election would not be held on January 30, and even if it was, fear and violence would curb the turnout. Ummmmm, looks like they lost again. This according to Rush Limbaugh...........................
Not a big fan of Limbaugh but I have been amazed that, to my knowledge, not one single naysayer in the Democratic Party has voiced surprise and admission of having been wrong regarding predictions of delayed elections and near-obliteration of the landscape if the elections went as scheduled. Iraqis gleefully literally jumping up and down at the pollng places has all but been ignored by the naysayers. John Kerry said Bush has one more opportunity to "get it right in Iraq." Huh? We must be fair here, however, many Democrats (Lieberman, Bayh, el. al., have voiced support for democracy in Iraq and have praised the election turnout. By and large, however, most Democrats have to be sad that Bush has scored a major victory here. I predict uprisings in Iran by democratic elements and an eventual fall of tyranny in that country also. Perhaps the student movement will again rise in China also. Maybe not, however, since pockets of democracy now exist there, albeit very minimally.
Now Jimmy, You will need to repeat the words of John Kerry yesterday on MSNBC. Now, say it low tone, morbid, and drawn, in John Kerry style. Well, the election appears to be going well, however, the long road to freedom has just begun, only I fear this road will be rocky, dangerous, and full of unexpected fear. This is mostly due to the unsuccessful policies of the Bush administration. We shall wait and see what the future holds, unfortunately, I am doubting it will be good for the people of Iraq.
If these words do not turn out to be ultimately a true and accurate assessment of what eventually comes to pass in Iraq, I will eat my computer keyboard.....
Like in Afghanistan, huh, Carl? When you eat your keyboard, please use a web cam so we can all watch.
Reminds me of this story: U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. --------------------------------------------------------------- Think we all know how that democracy turned out. If you don't like that one, how about San Salvador.
I'll try to oblige you there Jimmy! HAHA But seriously, you couldn't have picked a worse example - Afghanistan. As someone who knows more than a little about world and military history (namely, me, who has studied it both academically and as a hobby my entire life), Aghanistan is not a place I'd bet on remaining stable or as some sort of puppet democracy under foreign control for any length of time whatsoever. We have yet to take our worst beatings from that strange and hostile land. The British in the 19th century and the Soviets in the late 20th century both experienced what Afghanistan can do to a well-equipped, well-supported, and entrenched "modern army" with a puppet government in place. Five years from now we'll have this discussion again and see who is right.... if we are still on this board!
Your analysis of South Vietnam and its elections, and the enormous "victory" we foresaw for democracy in that area, are so right on in terms of their relevance to our current elation over "successes" in Afghanistan and Iraq that it is downright scary..... Those who do not choose to remember history are sure to relive it....
Democracy is a great thing. I thank god I live in this country. But, as it was pointed out by Khan, you can't force it down a countries throat. Eventually it will backfire. The ground swell for change has to come from within the country itself. They have to want it and fight for it from within.
We'll make it easy for you: http://www.mileskimball.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=7164&itemType=PRODUCT
Lack of knowledge To use Vietnam as an example demonstrates a severe lack of knowledge of the differences between Iraq and Vietnam. Vietnam was overrun by a dedicated EXTERNAL threat from North Vietnam which had a standing Army and the backing of the communist bloc.. Iraq's problems are almost all internal and the insurgents represent a minority of the population. Afghanistan isn't a very good example either since we are not trying to cram a secular communist government down the country's throat. The current reaction of the people in Afghanistan isn't even close to what it was to the Russians. Neither do we have anywhere near the military presence there that the USSR did. The vast majority of the Afghan population are very glad the Taliban is gone. Again, those who aren't are generally unsupported, internally and externally. If one is going to debate they should really know what they are debating.
Hmm On this matter and political jokes aside, Carl does have a point on this. I too have studied history and continue to do so each day. In regard to the Middle East or Western Asia, I can say I study now and was able to experience it by touring. That is with an M-60 and explosive ordiance material as a soldier / advisor. Iraq had an election victory. 72% of the people cast ballots, yes this is a good thing. Will democracy prevail there and Afghanistan, not to mention spread to the rest of the area? I have my high doubts. In my humble opinion, this region does not nor care to know democracy. From recorded history until present day this land has been mired in battle. From ancient Kings to modern armies. Occupied by zealots, religious nutcases, or developed nations seeking natural resources. All in all the major part of the population is uneducated and follow out of turn beliefs that should have ran its course 500 years ago. Afghanistan is still a puppet government and I feel the same as Carl, it will remain so. Outside of this what else is there? A desolate land, 70+% illiteracy, and the main source of income is poppy for drugs. Iraq, another story. When I served in the area it was after the fall of Iran to the mullas, We were advising our friend at that time, Iraq's Saddam. The Sunni was an ally, Today, it is the opposite. As of yesterday? It looks as though a mulla who is allied with Iran is winning in Iraq. Basically, I do not think Bush's "New World Order" will work there now. Nothing else ever has.
