Economists not so sure about globalization anymore

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by agingBetter, Nov 29, 2004.

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  1. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member

    Globalization is not the answer, and probably will kill the US economy.


    Shaking Up Trade Theory
    For decades economists have insisted that the U.S. wins from globalization. Now they're not so sure

    "The fact that programming, engineering, and other high-skilled jobs are jumping to places such as China and India seems to conflict head-on with the 200-year-old doctrine of comparative advantage."

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_49/b3911408.htm

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_49/b3911401.htm
     
  2. Khan

    Khan New Member

    That's scary that Samuelson said it. Although the only thing that economists agree upon is that they don't agree upon anything, he's a pretty heavy hitter.

    But with corporations running our government now, I'm sure we'll be fine as they look out for our best interests;-)
     
  3. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    Of course, The Economist (magazine) still believes in globalization. Last week's edition had their list of best books of 2004, including: Why Globalization Works by Martin Wolf.
     
  4. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    I am under the impression that globalization is an effect, not an end really. It is irreversible, and corporate US benefits the most from it. Some people may lose their jobs, but it is unclear on whether or not the US economy as a whole suffers from it.

    Regards
     
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    CERTAINLY globalization works, if by "working" you mean "allows multinational corporations to reap larger profits by pitting workers against each other in a race to the bottom."

    The people KNOW this; that's why the WTO riots in Seattle happened, that's why the WTO has NO citizen input or accountability, that's why the WTO negotiates in secret.

    Worst of all, in my mind, both democrats and republicans have worked tirelessly to disenfranchise and enslave the American worker through so-called free trade.

    N.B. "Free trade" means that a big corporation like Georgia Pacific can force its way into Mexico to take natural resources and sell its finished products BUT "free trade" does NOT mean that workers in one country can sell their labor in another country; no, they must stay home and do whatever they are told to do for a living for whatever they are told they will earn.

    The European Union at least guarantees the free movement of labor amonst the member states.
     
  6. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member

    Excellent points, nosborne48.

    What should an American do to avoid being enslaved? Move to another country, perhaps Europe? Learn a foreign language and hope to leverage that skill?

    How best to overcome the disenfranchisement without being wealthy? How to STAY middle class?

    My answer is to look at foreign distance universities to save money (UNISA, e.g.), learn Chinese/Japanese/Hindi/French, and become an expert in my field of choice.

    Another answer is to choose an unoutsourceable field such as law (slowly the para-legal work is being outsourced), sales, medical (in my case, I am looking at counseling psychology) or the trades (being run over by immigrants to the US or restricted entry by unions).

    ????
     
  7. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Thanks for the interesting article.

    I'm sure many Americans are appalled at the thought that they might not be able to purchase a second Lexus just so some Indian kid can work his way out of poverty and be able to feed his family.

    Waaah! Waaah! I lost my job to outsourcing and I've been unemplyed for three years because I refuse to work for less than $100K per year. Waah! Waaah!
     
  8. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    The British Encyplopedia should include your picture next to the definition of demagogy together with this text (see above) to illustrate the concept better. :D

    Just kidding!

    I think you´re right, outsourcing is making US companies more efficient and productive. Some highly paid jobs will simply disappear, and some people may have to reinvent themselves to survive. But that´s what neoliberalism is about. No pity here.


    Regards

    PS As usual, Nosborne you make a great point. Yesterday I was browsing through a book , Jihad vs. McWorld that somehow deals with that idea you pointed out about the WTO and its lack of democracy, being it the neuralgic decision center of the world. While I think a good number of those who protest in those meeting against globalization are just sc**bags (sorry) of the Earth, I think many others are not, and their complants are legitimate, and should be heard.
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    grgrwll,

    Well, no, that isn't exactly my complaint. I am not likely to be outsourced, though some major multinational firms ARE outsourcing legal work. What object to, and LOUDLY, is that WTO decisions override domestic legislation, whether environmental, labor, taxation, intellectual property, you name it.

    'scuse me. I am NOT happy to sit by and watch Americans lose their sovereign power to govern themselves so that uncontrolled and uncontrollable multinational corporations can increase their profit margins.

    Actually, I was VERY annoyed with the President over the steel tarif business when he BACKED DOWN. His administration had reached the conclusion that other countries were "dumping" steel so he decided to do something about it.

    BOY HOWDY did he back down the MINUTE it looked like American big business might suffer a SANCTION. Can't have THAT, you know.

    As if the rest of the world could AFFORD to sanction the largest single economy in the world.
     
  10. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member


    Boy, are you out of touch.

    And envious, it sounds.

    I don't think anyone I know of that worked at HP, for example, was necessarily making six figures. They were making living wages and because of specialization required by their jobs, have difficulty training in other fields.

    Not only that, but have you seen the cost of education lately? Some engineers and techies are still paying their student loans from undergrad years.

    This problem effects middle America, not the classes in the six figure range so much. People making $40 to $80K per year are being removed with no way to replace their income.

    This isn't a bad thing, necessarily....but who is going to buy all the goods and services we produce? The poor? The rich? No. The MIDDLE CLASS that is slowly being "disappeared."

    I think only professional Walmart greeters or those living on trust funds don't see the writing on the wall yet.

    Maybe you should read "Cliff Walk". Or "Nickel and Dimed", for some perspective other than your own.
     
  11. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Oh yes! I'm envious! Envious that I can't be a closed-minded zealot who worships the almighty dollar!

    Fine. Get a job a McDonald's. It requires no training. Work your way up. In a year, any reasonably intelligent person with a bit of ambition could work up to manager, which pays quite well.

    Why is it that the neo-cons are so willing to tell homeless people that they should simply "get a job" but they feel so sorry for these losers who are whining because their jobs were outsourced?

    Waah! Waaah! Get a job. You live in the land of opportunity. Poor people here live better than rich people in the rest of the world. I have one thing to say to the people complaining about outsourcing -- stop whining and get a damned job.

    I guess that makes me a liberal, in the twisted neo-con world.

    And maybe you should read "The Lexus and The Olive Tree" to understand that this trend is inevitable, and whether or not it is good for us, we better get ready for it. Whining won't help.

    Waaah! Waaah!
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Actually, I read "Lexus and Tree" when it first came out. Well written but he didn't BEGIN to deal with slave wages, environmental issues, covert government subsidies, or terrorism.
     
  13. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member

    "Fine. Get a job a McDonald's. It requires no training. Work your way up. In a year, any reasonably intelligent person with a bit of ambition could work up to manager, which pays quite well."

    How does a married couple with say, two kids and a mortgage and two years of savings make it on a McDonald's job?

    I "get" your point that we have it well here, but you are missing the sociological implications here. How can a consumerist economy keep up? This is what the article in the initial post addresses. We have no idea what the impact will be when consumers of the middle class can't afford to consume any more and there are no replacement careers that pay middle class income.

    I'm willing to go with you on this, but please provide a better argument than "tough sh|t, life is hard."

    I foresee a collapse. You will be hit, too.
     
  14. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    He did deal with terrorism. He specifically talked about Osama Bin Laden. In 1999 (or earlier), Friedman recognized that Osama was a serious threat to the U.S. Unfortunately, the CIA apparently did not share this view.

    As for the rest, Friedman did not deal with those things because the purpose of this book was not to justify globalization -- it was simply saying that it was inevitable. Yes, he should have given at least some attention to these important issues as an effect of globalization. But that does not detract from the veracity of his thesis.
     
  15. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    They sell their house and rent a tiny apartment. And maybe they get another job. Work 80 hours a week. Do what it takes to get by. Period.

    Look, life sucks sometimes. Having a job is not a guarantee of a job forever. Living in America is not a gurantee that you will live a carefree wealthy life.

    Get a damned job and start over. Sorry. That's the way the world works.

    As I said, if you are competent and have a good attitude, you can easily work your way back into the middle (or upper-middle) class in short order.

    And there are very, very few places on earth where this is possible.


    Honestly, I don't care if I'm hit. Even though my salary is very modest, I make FAR more than I need to get by and have a good life. I know how to grow my own crops, forage for food, hunt game, find clean water, etc. Do you?

    Maybe this country needs a little belt-tightening.

    I'm sick of listening to people who believe that just because they are Americans they are entitled to a big house with a plasma TV and three cars and blah, blah, blah.

    Sick to death of it.

    And in this twisted world, that makes me a liberal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2004
  16. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member

    "I know how to grow my own crops, forage for food, hunt game, find clean water, etc. Do you?"


    Ah, I see.

    Gun toting trailer living back-woods loving red stater.

    I'm just kidding, but you see how your statement falls into the stereotype of someone who doesn't live in a distributed economy in an urban area.
     
  17. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    And that's the problem with stereotypes. I have 2 Master's degrees from good universities, I live in a major urban area, I work in a white collar job, and most of my friends aren't even aware that I own a gun. I don't even hunt. The point is that I could, if the need arose.

    (Although I do live in a red state...)
     
  18. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    Protesters rioting the WTO in Seattle was like people rioting hospitals because they don't like suffering.

    Large multinationals don't need the WTO to get cheap labor, exploit resources, etc. They can do that just fine on their own. The WTO helps the smaller nations get access to markets they otherwise would not be able to. In fact, when the protests in Seattle happened, the smaller countries of the WTO accused the US of instigating them on purpose in order to avoid negotiations.
     
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Might even be true!

    All I'm saying is that I don't like the idea that these "we know best" trade reps are dealing away our right to govern ourselves and we, the governed, are shut out of the process.

    What happened to the right to petition?
     
  20. Orson

    Orson New Member

    False!

    DO YOU have any evidence for this assertion? Surely you can't mean the Republicans-who led in small donations this last election cycle.

    The only long-term empirical data that I've seen shows that coporate concentration (ie "control" of the wealth creation) is decreasing. This is consistent with an aging post WWII economy needing to become more efficient and nimble, exposed to outside competitive forces - which is what we've seen in the past two decades

    The claim above is unsupported.

    -orson
     

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