Osama Bin Laden is Dead :)

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by javila5400, Oct 27, 2004.

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  1. javila5400

    javila5400 New Member

  2. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    That's hilarious. The blogger actually tries to get inside the head of George Bush. Can you imagine? Must be awfully drafty in there. Imagine trying to discern the crafty machinations inside George Bush's brain. Bush knows that OBL is dead, but he's keeping it secret, as he doesn't want to inflame the insurgents. Bush even risks losing the election with this secret.

    Really really funny stuff. Do you have anymore comedy blog sites you can turn us onto? Laughter really is the best medicine. The idea of George Bush as a man who comprehends and appreciates subtlety. Absolutely priceless.
     
  3. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Crusades! Jesus! Yeeeee hawww!
     
  4. firstmode4c

    firstmode4c Member

    Christians do and have done wrong things.

    Athiests do and have done wrong things.

    Jesus does no wrong has never done wrong.


    try to be like Jesus
     
  5. javila5400

    javila5400 New Member

    I am serious. Osama is dead. French snipers shot him somewhere between the rag on his head and his beard. Here are the heroes who took him out.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. beachhoppr

    beachhoppr New Member

    He's either dead or he's in China
     
  7. dcv

    dcv New Member

  8. Khan

    Khan New Member

  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Naw. I seen him. He's running a cheap motel in El Paso.
     
  10. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Well, the rat showed up today threatening the US but having a real intention to have an influence on the US Elections. I think he prefers Bush to be elected, but not because of those stupidities he claimed about the US Foreign Policy which generally doesn't change with different presidents. I think he prefers Bush because he'll help him polarize the world, a perfect scenario for his strategy for this unconventional war. A Kerry who, for instance, may start improving international relations with the Arabs and building the Transatlantic bridge won't help him legitimize his fight against occident.
     
  11. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Well, maybe this is not the right thread to post my previous comment. Apologies if that's the case.
     
  12. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I agree that he was trying to influence the election. The interesting question is why and how.

    It was striking to me how several of his remarks almost sounded like John Kerry campaign quotes. (For example, when be criticised Bush for failing to catch him.)

    Was that an attempt to add his weight to the criticism of Bush? Or was it a much more Byzantine attempt to discredit Kerry?

    Personally, I'm inclined to see it as Osama's attempt to "pull a Spain", by increasing voter unease right bfore the election, by reminding them "I'm still here and you're still in danger", and by hoping to get them to blame the incumbent for that disquieting state of affairs.

    If John Kerry was willing to act decisively, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of difference between him and George Bush. Any world leader that refuses to cooperate because Bush is in power would still refuse to cooperate with Kerry.

    But electing an accomodationist anti-war President eager to compromise, and electing him as a result of Muslims standing up to and defying the power of the United States, would be a tremendous victory for bin Ladin and for everything that he stands for.

    It would demonstrate the power of the Muslim street. And it would prove the weakness of Western resolve.

    I suspect that the real objective here is making the US back down, just as Spain did. That's the victory that Osama bin Ladin wants so passionately. Osama wants it for the effect that it would have on young Muslim militants everywhere.

    If they can just put aside their own fear and doubt, if they have the resolution to fight the Western behemoth, the courage to hurt it, then it will eventually back down like the coward that it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2004
  13. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Yes good points. OBL has a silver lining no matter who wins. As long as the US continues the fighting and the occupation, he has a steady stream of recruits. If the US ultimately appeases the Muslim world, he wins a political/moral victory.
     
  14. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    I am so sick of this idea that anyone who doesn't want to completely destroy every living human "on the other side" is a coward.

    Look, 19 people carried out the attacks on September 11. Sixteen were Saudi's. None were Iraqi's.

    Yet anyone who questions the fact that we have continued to support the Saudi's is Anti-American. Anyone who questions the fact that we obviously don't give a damn about capturing the mastermind of this attack is Anti-American.

    And anyone who thinks that maybe it was wrong to kill over 100,000 Iraqi civilians in retaliation for an attack in which they played no part is a coward.


    ----------------------------
    "'Nuke the Whales!' You don't really believe that do you. -- Lisa

    "Hey, ya gotta nuke somethin'" -- Nelson
     
  15. dcv

    dcv New Member

    If indeed you are so sick of this idea, it is in your power to be rid of it. It appears that you yourself have created it. I saw no one else propose it - certainly not the post you quoted from.
    Look, 9/11 wasn't the first nor the last suicide bombing. Hussein was blatantly paying bounties to the families of suicide bombers. That's reason enough to take him out as far as I'm concerned.
    :confused: Again, I haven't seen anyone say this except you.
    I would say that anyone who doesn't think we care about capturing bin laden is something alright, but "Anti-American" isn't the phrase that comes to mind. Perhaps 'obtuse', or 'vacuous'. Kerry seems to think we should have poured thousands of troops into the mountains of Afghanistan to capture or kill one man. Perhaps he should ask the Russians how their adventures with thousands of troops in the mountains of Afghanistan went.
    Coward? No. Gullible, perhaps. Nothing but a costless and instantaneously victorious war can satisfy such people. As a wise man recently said, however, "The truth is that war remains the same the more it changes."
     
  16. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Violence and war have become fashionable. Anyone who disagrees is a coward or anti-American. The lunacy is given a weird historical perspective: Anyone who disagrees with the current course of this country must be one of those cowards who in the past sat around on the couch while others fought for his or her freedom - that freedom that we cowards exploit but take for granted. The blather goes on and on.

    After 9-11 almost everyone felt that some action was warranted, that life HAD changed and we needed to reexamine how things were done. Many people were saying that we needed to fight a new kind of war, a smarter war. George Bush has chosen to fight the old kind of war, and it has put him (us) into a terrible stew. He knows no way out of it other than fighting the same war. In the face of evident failure he becomes more thick-headed.

    OBL has played Bush like a violin. The WTC and 9-11 was only the catalyst (and I in no way mean to trivialize what happened on that day). OBL has baited a stupid president into conventional warfare. OBL, with Bush as his puppet, has created a messy war that perhaps cannot be won. What HAS been created is a perpetual recruitment machine for OBL, and a quagmire of hatred-fueled warfare for years to come.

    Our “war” against terrorism has created the most divided country in recent memory. This effort is responsible, in large part, for a $400 billion or so swing in this country’s wealth. The actions of 9-11 have dominated the dialogue in this country in all the days since. Our presidential election and the debates were almost about nothing else other than the “fight” against terrorism. The discussion of other issues in the debates, such as the economy, education etc., was relevant mainly because so much money has been siphoned off of those issues due to our war. This fight has been the rallying cry of Bush over and over and over again. A presidential candidate cannot be taken seriously, and is in fact subject to ridicule, unless he spews the mantra of “seeking out and killing the terrorists no matter where they are hiding blah blah blah.”

    OBL’s recent appearance is a blatant mockery of Bush and his policies. $400 billion in the hole and we still don’t have him. What we do have is a mess, and OBL knows that and rejoices in it. The destruction of the WTC was only the beginning. He has ripped the country in two and dominated the consciousness of a majority of Americans. He has done this WITHOUT the need for another attack. Ironically, the absence of further attacks on our soil has been touted by some as a victory for Bush’s policies. No, it’s a victory for OBL. He spent nothing. We spent $200 billion protecting ourselves against something that had nothing to do with OBL and the attack of 9-11. Defenders of Bush have had to concoct a twisted rationale to justify the cost in lives and dollars. “Oh but Saddam was a dangerous guy; it’s a good thing we took him out.” Yes, he was dangerous when Bush Sr. was in power. He was dangerous before 9-11. How have we protected ourselves against another 9-11? Oh, I see, the rationale has shifted: now we are fighting for the freedom of Iraqi’s. That was the first thing you thought needed to be done as you watched the Towers burn, wasn’t it – free the Iraqi’s?

    Would anyone argue that OBL has not been successful and that Bush has played into his hands like a naïve schoolboy? Be thankful that Bush is not your doctor. He would try to cure leukemia with missiles and tanks. Isn’t it amazing that a guy living in a cave can have this effect on the richest country in the world? OBL must be convinced that we are a nation of idiots. From his perspective how would you argue with that conclusion? For sure, he’s got one idiot on a string. The situation will be hard to remedy even if Kerry is elected. He’s smarter than Bush, but Bush has created a monumental mess that is not unlike Viet Nam in that there is no smooth way to withdraw without causing more violence, chaos, and loss of national self esteem. Thank your brilliant President for that.

    Electing Kerry is a beginning that has some hope. Like Clinton, we can assume that he will surround himself with smart and able people. This in stark contrast to the mediocrity of Bush's people - retreads from his father's and Nixon's generations. We need a president that thinks outside the box, rather than one who has dumb-vicious propensities for placing young people in boxes.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I have thought and thought about what OBL's idea was in releasing this tape. Is he really trying to discredit President Bush and thus help Senator Kerry win the election? Can he really think that would work?

    Or is he reminding the Arab world that the U.S. HAS failed to kill or capture him and therefore the U.S. is not all-powerful?

    Or is he simply reminding the Arab world that he is still alive and in charge for the purpose of keeping al quaida in line? In short, it really doesn't have anything to do with the U.S. but rather with maintaining his own authority?

    Or, and this is the scariest possibility, is the tape actually an encoded message to terrorist cells, directing new acts of terror? How better to communicate his orders world-wide without revealing his own location?
     
  18. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that Osama and his associates see the West as decadent. We wallow in our wealth and corruption, but have no stomach for sacrifice.

    In Spain, they bombed some subway cars, and an anti-war government was elected, Spain distanced itself from the US and withdrew its troops from Iraq.

    My point in my last post is that Osama is probably hoping to do the same thing with us.

    It's interesting that he didn't actually strike us like Spain was struck. Perhaps his organization is so disrupted that they can't. Or perhaps he worried that Bush would be reelected on a wave of American anger.


    But Osama obviously wanted to speak to the American people. He wanted to remind us that he's very much alive and that we are definitely not safe.

    Then he stole a piece of Kerry's campaign rhetoric, blaming Bush for failing to catch him. I think that the point was to say: Bush failed. He couldn't protect you.

    Finally Osama emphasized that the security of the American people lies in the American people's hands. That's obviously a reference to the election.

    My belief is that Osama bin Ladin really wants Kerry to win. He apparently (and probably accurately) sees Kerry as the anti-war candidate. Kerry's whole appeal is to critics of Bush's war. Kerry's history is that of an anti-war activist. And a cornerstone of Kerry's foreign policy is that he would improve American relations with the French-led anti-war bloc of nations.

    In other words, that electing Kerry would represent a Spain-style about-face for the United States.

    Why would Osama want that?

    Obviously, it would reduce the pressure on him and on his organization.

    But more importantly, it would be a public victory for those who kill American soldiers with roadside ambushes, for those who kidnap foreigners and cut off their heads on TV, and for those who blow themselves up in suicide attacks on pizza parlors.

    If the militants of the Muslim street keep their faith, if they remain resolute, if they make the Western TV news as horrific and appalling as they can, Western voters will recoil.

    The voters of the cowardly and decadent West will always compromise, over and over, in order to protect their pampered lives.

    I think that's how Osama bin Ladin sees it and I think that it probably explains what he was trying to do with his video.

    He was speaking both to us and to his young supporters all over the Muslim world.
     
  19. JLV

    JLV Active Member


    Tom57,

    I think unfortunately this war is more a little more than that. See, for instance, Spain's train bombings. These attacks were prepared years before Aznar decided to support Bush both politically and militarily. Spain had been traditionally an Arab allies (for decades for instance didn't even recognize the State of Israel). Spain has organized Conferences of Peace for the Midle East and has been considered as a good mediator betwen Israel and the Arabs. It didn't matter. On March 11, 2004, Arab Fundamentalists killed 200 workers and students in a commuter train even though Spain didn't have any decisive role in International Affairs. Ironically a few weeks ago Spanish Police detected yet another group of Arabs trying to bomb AGAIN a Spanish Anti terrorist court (you might remember Judge Garzon). It didn't matter that Spain pulled out all troups and publicly comdemned the war. IT IS STILL A TARGET! Soon after the 9/11 atacks G.W. Bush said that they hate us for being free, and I think those words were not just mere rhetorical. Fundamentalist Muslims hate our freedom as they advocate virtue. If you realize an imposed virtue is meaningless, but nevertheless that's how OBL perceives this war against Occident. They won't stop even if the US does everything they want. Whether it has international political influence or not, no Western country is safe from Muslim terrorists. That's why I am afraid that this war is not that simple. Appeasement won't do it.

    However, one of the key factors to fight Bin Laden, in my opinion, is the international consensus. Bush has miserably failed to achieve it in an unconventional war where armies as you pointed out are pretty much useless. Thus an overwhelmimg majority in Europe, including the UK, wants Kerry to win this election. I truly had never seen something like this before.

    Yes, that's one of the reasons why Osama bin Laden wants Bush to win the elections, in my humble opinion. His appareance on tv was intended as a message for the American public stating something like: "I am alive and still very dangerous", which probably will propel Bush's candidacy, much stronger in safety and fear issues. This is just my opinion, because it is uncertain how a country would react to this kind of things.

    I think there has to be a third way of doing things. Perhaps a combination of military and political strength coupled with powerful diplomatic relations would help undermine OBL's legitimacy in the Muslim world, his recruitment source. Which candidate is more appropriate to achieve it? Well, I have my opinion but that's up to you people to decide ;) This is the most important US election in my lifetime. I hope the decision is taken wisely.


    Cordial Greetings
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2004
  20. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    BTW, I don't want to forget to mention that I am almost certain that Osama heard about those attacks in Spain on the radio or tv. Al Qaeda is a terror franchise, the umbrella under which all Muslim terrorist organizations seek and find legitimacy. I doubt it will disappear if Laden's killed.
     

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