Islamic Jihad? A permanent state of war?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Carl_Reginstein, Oct 13, 2004.

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Why do you think Osama bin Laden and al-Quaeda are attacking the US?

  1. Because of US policies of supporting Israel

    4 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. Because they hate our culture and our society

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. Because they perceive the US as a threat to Islam

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  4. All of the above

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  5. None of the above

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. How many of you think that Osama bin Laden and his ilk are permanently and irrevocably "at war" with the West, and the US in particular?
     
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I certainly don't think that about Islam as a whole, or about the majority of Muslims. But there is a large and influential element in the Islamic community that do think that way.

    Why?

    Islamic "modernism" in the last century or two has taken a very different course than modernism in the West. Muslims reacted to European colonialism by attempting to cure what they perceived as their own decadence. They turned strongly against cultural impositions from abroad and towards their own Islamic traditions. They reacted against the often heterodox mysticism of the Sufi orders and sought a return to what they imagined was the purity of the early Muslim community. That often took the form of a demand for the reimposition of shariah law, a movement that we see in virtually all Muslim countries today to a greater or lesser extent. In other words, what the West sees as Islamic fundamentalism, is interpreted by many of the younger and better educated Muslims as a reforming force.

    Well, that puts the "reformist" fundamentalist Islam that's partly an expression of defiant nationalism squarely into a collision course with the rising tide of international globalization.

    The world's mass media, lifestyles, sexual mores, consumer orientation, fashions, music videos, TV, communications, the internet, tolerance of cultural diversity, democracy as opposed to theocracy, women's liberation, individual autonomy and choice, the marketplace of ideas, secularism, the rationalism that's associated with science and technology, even DL education programs ... it all works like a corrosive acid that's eating away at their ideals and their identity.

    Muslim militants feel that Islam is under assault, and that it has been for centuries. That's why they are always talking about "crusaders". That's why they hate Israel, which they see as a new crusader-state projected into the heart of their Islamic world. They associate this assault, whether it's real or imaginary, with the West. The United States is the foremost power in the West. New York is the "big apple". The world trade towers were New York's proudest buildings. So they took them down to send us a message: FUCK YOU.

    How is this going to play out? That's hard to say. I think that the advantage is clearly on our side. That's what makes our enemies so desperate and so dangerous. Emotionally, they are like cornered animals. They will try to strike us, and given the powers of weapons of mass destruction, it's not fantastic to imagine New York City being totally obliterated. That's a very real possibility.

    If that happened, the world's evolving global civilization wouldn't be destroyed. But it would certainly be transformed and redirected onto a new track. Our easy-going tolerant ways would probably turn into something a lot harder and a lot uglier. We would probably still win in the long run, but the victory may only come after millions of people die and the victor might not look very much like us.

    Of course, the forces of Western-style modernism in the Islamic world might eventually win or the Muslim world might find some other way to peacefully coexist with the rest of us.

    The whole thing might just fizzle out, like communism did. We all expected a holocaust in the cold war too.
     
  3. JoAnnP38

    JoAnnP38 Member

    I believe that our support for Israel is just a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda not the basis for their being, but it is a basis for hate.

    I don't believe that they really "hate" our society. Yes, they believe that some western values are immoral and yes, they don't want western values imposed on them, but once again I don't believe this is the reason for their "being."

    I do believe that they believe that western culture is a threat to Islam as our export of our culture to other nations through various media seems all but inevitable. I think they believe that this is their last stand against this incursion and also to prove that the Arab third world is still relevant. I think that this reason is the reason for Al Qaeda.
     
  4. BDev

    BDev New Member

    Shortly after 9/11 I was talking with my wife about being in that country. From the time that they are able to "discern" (from youth), they are taught to hate their neighbor, Isreal. The children are taught horrible, horrible things about the Israelis ( they eat their children etc; etc; ) any and everything to pass down the contempt & hate and to ultimately perpetuate fear. Since, Isreal is in their area, one would think that they (the Arabs) would come up with some "master plan" to attack them but...they chose us instead. They collectively came thousands of miles to attack us. It makes me wonder what they teach their children about us.

    Maybe they don't have to teach them much...all they have to do is look at the news.
     
  5. The poll I submitted might not be the best designed poll I ever did....;)

    But, here's some food for thought.

    Have any of you read the book "Imperial Hubris" by "Anonymous"? It discusses one author's opinion (ex-CIA) of why al-Qaeda and the Islamic movement is fighting us. He claims that their fight is very focused, and that "jihad" is used in the form of "defensive jihad", which means that it is the personal duty of every Muslim to defend Islam from a new attack by infidels and colonialists. He further claims that Osama bin Laden's goal is not the dismantling of our democratic society, or the conquest of America, and that Muslim hatred for the US is not strictly speaking driven by a dislike of our culture and society.

    Instead, the premise for Muslim hatred against the US is driven by US policies in the region. Policies that support Israel unconditionally. Policies that have led to US military occupation of the Arabian peninsula, Baghdad, and Kabul. Policies that have turned us from being seen as "friends" to being seen as the inheritors of British-French-German colonialism of a bygone era. Policies that have resulted in our support of profligate and effete princes and dictators who are Muslim only in name, and that have resulted in oppression and death for the common people of the area. Policies that have kept oil prices below market value, for the sole benefit of the US and Western economies.

    These are all powerful reasons to hate us. Note that there is nothing in the former rationale that says that Muslims hate us because we have an open society, are free to watch pornography, and allow our young people to "fraternize" in public.

    Note also that these reasons are not irrevocable. However, it will require a re-examination of all of our policies in the area rather than an ethnocentric attitude of "democracy is what y'all need", as spewed forth by the Bush administration ad nauseum in order to begin to de-escalate the current pattern of violence, war, and terrorism.

    Far from being an apocalyptic angel of death, Osama bin Laden is actually seen by other Muslims (even moderate ones) as a brave Arab who is willing to punch back against these assaults on Muslim lands, peoples, and resources. Time for us to start paying attention to his words, his message, and try to figure out an appropriate response rather than just writing him off as a nutcase, or assuming that the situation is beyond any possibility of a negotiated settlement.

    For what it's worth.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2004
  6. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Bill and Carl:

    Thank you for these posts.

    Bill said, regarding the potential obliteration of NYC:
    I think Osama's goal is precisely this. Not to destroy people ultimately, but to create such a hatred in the West that we withdraw and leave Islam to its own devices. To, as you have said, "coexist with the rest of us" overall. To remove the insidious fingers of modernity from Islam, which does not seem to be reforming much to the middle. This way, the purse worship of Allah can be preserved.

    Bill, why do you think the advantage is on our side, in the West and in modernity?

    Carl, I like the idea that the US could just simply withdraw from Israel, and then find new energy sources, and the terrorists would leave us alone. I'd like to agree, but don't you think fundamentalist Islam is an expression of peace through homogeneity, like Hitler's vision? Currently, I don't see an answer for peace anytime soon without widespread reform within Islam. I don't think that is going to happen.

    Also, just a note on Bill's imaginary destruction of NYC. I understand that Bin Laden has submitted some kind of request to his superiors in Islam (a religion I don't know much about, with respect to the hierarchy) for clarification on whether or not acts that inflict mass casualties are an acceptable form of jihad. It was a guest on Mike Savage's show that used to be an analyst that reported this. Sounds pretty grave to me if Osama himself is double-checking.

    Chris
     

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