Thanks to Bush!!!!

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by rajyc, Oct 8, 2004.

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  1. rajyc

    rajyc New Member

  2. ...and it is more than just job growth

    I have to comment on this. The issue is far more than job growth. I'm thinking of Edward's comment the other night about the "bright light of opportunity that is America is flickering". On a personal note, my wife and I are both working harder than we ever have (thankfully, we are still employed), we are making more money than we ever have, and by all standards we should be prosperous.

    But we are not. We are struggling to make ends meet, and I have never felt such personal anxiety over the future as I do today with rising oil prices, rising insurance costs, rising health care costs, an economy in shambles, our high-tech strategic advantage being sold offshore for the sake of a few $ of savings, the destruction of our middle class and technology sector in particular, and the overall climate of fear that is in the air about terrorism, war, uncertainty, and paying the bills.

    We make well into the six figures, and are having trouble finding $ to send our kids to college - public college.

    This is not right. Something has to change. The problem is that Bush is such a poor leader that even things that he could have influenced (and I understand that the Presidency is not "God") he has bungled, and bungled badly. It isn't so much about philosophy and conservative vs. liberal as it is about the fact that George W. Bush is an incompetent fool who has been given the reins to the largest and most powerful economic and military machine in the world. It is like giving over the controls of a 747 to an infant!

    Please, anyone who has a mind and a heart, vote this guy out of office in November!!!! Kerry ain't perfect, but at least he is DIFFERENT. We've seen enough of the damage that a blithering and arrogant idiot can do to our country in 4 short years.
     
  3. javila5400

    javila5400 New Member

    AND YOU PEOPLE THINK THESE TWO WILL SAVE OUR ECONOMY?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2004
  4. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    I have to agree with Carl.

    During the 90's, my salary increased by nearly 300% over the course of the decade. I also completed my bachelors during that time. My wife and I made well into the 6 figure range together. We both own homes.

    Now, we are working longer hours, making 60% less money due to outsourcing. (EVERYONE who has been a proponent of outsourcing has ALWAYS had a vested interest in the dumb idea). We are both college educated, experienced (IT and Semiconductors).

    If Bush would get off his duff and make the following rules, I would even consider voting for the putz:

    1. No outsourcing using government money. (meaning the IRS, etc)

    2. No tax breaks for companies that outsource their technical jobs.
    If you want to outsource, that is fine, but it is on your own dime.

    3. Tax breaks for companies that decide to keep their jobs right here.

    4. No outsourcing of sensitive records (medical, etc.). They have already shown that our privacy laws don't work in India or Pakistan.
     
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I hate and despise Bush/Cheney. I've already voted against them, to avoid what is shaping up to be a rush to the polls this year.

    However.

    I have never been satisfied that Presidents, or even Federal Reserve Board Chairmen, actually affect the economy to the extent we'd all like to believe. I just don't buy it. The American economy is HUGE. Somebody on NPR pointed out recently that Microsoft's recent dividend payments amounted to a greater cash infusion into the economy than the ENTIRE Bush tax cut package. (I haven't verified this claim, but you get the idea.)

    As to outsourcing...well, as a taxpayer, if my local government can get a good or service of equal quality cheaper outside the U.S. than inside, I consider it good management of MY tax dollars that it do so. Subsidies, whether direct or in the form of trade restrictions, lead to inefficient companies and higher prices. Witness, for example, the condition of the American Merchant Marine or the U.S. nuclear power industry. Look what happened to freight railroads after Staggers Act deregulation.

    However, again.

    Free trade must be fair trade, which damned little of it seems to be. I am not interested in buying from slave labor producers such as the Red Chinese Army. I don't think we should buy from businesses that use their locations in third world countries to avoid environmental regulations or labor unions.

    However yet again.

    Sometimes its hard to tell what's outsourced and what's domestic. We live in a world of multi-national corporations. Am I buying American when I buy a Toyota built here or a Ford built overseas? When I buy gasoline, whoa! where does the OIL COMPANY live?
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Most economists will say an unemployment rate around 5% is excellent!

    Remember, it's the private sector that mostly creates jobs.

    Now I have reviewed all my presidential campaign literature from as far back as 1964. Every piece by the opposition party, from every election since, states concern about the economy, job rate, rising prices, etc.
     
  7. rajyc

    rajyc New Member

    Well said Carl...
     
  8. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Hmmm

    1. No outsourcing using government money. (meaning the IRS, etc)
    As a problem this is miniscule. Way less than a fraction of 1%. Makes a great campaign soundbite though.

    2. No tax breaks for companies that outsource their technical jobs.
    There are no tax breaks specifically for companies that outsource. Denying them others for which they qualify would probably be a violation of WTO rules.

    3. Tax breaks for companies that decide to keep their jobs right here.
    Almost assuredly a violation of WTO rules. It is called an illegal government subsidy. It is one of the things Boeing has accused Airbus of. Doing either of 3 or 4 would probably result in penalties to other US products.

    4. No outsourcing of sensitive records (medical, etc.). They have already shown that our privacy laws don't work in India or Pakistan.
    Again this loses so few jobs as to be almost meaningless in the employment rate. Haven't actually heard of it being a problem until today.

    As usual, the rhetoric hides the real problem with wages in the world or the United States. Depressed wages can come frome exploding populatios either through birth or immigration. Ricardo's Law of Wages is explicit in this matter. When you bear in mind that the United States had more immigrants in the 1990's than for any other decade in the past the law becomes very pertinent. However, if you point to the facts of the issue you are labeled a racist or worse. Political correctness at its finest. And immigration isn't all bad either. Immigrants do use goods and services so they have input into growing the economy as well. I am a computer geek by trade and outsourcing is a hot topic in the field. However, losses to outsourcing have only been around 15% and are starting to correct (as companies discover some problems associated with O/S). The rest of the losses were from the declining economy and more importantly the dot-com crash.

    For some perspective other unemployment rates:
    USA 5.4 percent
    Canada 7.2 percent
    Japan 4.7 percent (very controlled economy which must change)
    Australia 6.2 percent
    United Kingdom 6.0 percent
    France 8.8 percent (same as Japan)
    Germany 9.2 percent (same as Japan)
    Italy 8.4 percent
    Spain 11.5 percent
    Sweden 6.0 percent
    Austria 4.5 percent
    Portugal 6.9 percent
    Denmark 6.0 percent
    Korea 3.5 percent (On a boom period)
    New Zealand 4.0 percent
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I continue to be amazed at the Kerry supporters and most Democrats who blame Bush for outsourcing.

    Clinton-Gore supported NAFTA. Gore debated Perot on Larry King as to the merits of NAFTA.

    Kerry supported NAFTA.

    As usual, Kerry speaks out of all sides of his mouth.
     
  10. DCross

    DCross New Member

    Does this number (which seems low) take into consideration the record number of people who quit their "jobs" to start their own businesses?
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Thanks to Bush!!!!

    Unemployment numbers are usually always manipulated to serve the politician who tries to benefit from them.

    Often those who left the job market to create businesses, those who quit because they didn't like their job, those who were fired, etc., are counted.

    Sometimes the military isn't even counted when the opposition tries to use employment figures to hurt the incumbent.

    Numbers, polls, stats, etc., can always be manipulated to say exactly what one wants them to say.
     
  12. DCross

    DCross New Member

    Re: ...and it is more than just job growth


    So...you are saying that the reason you are having trouble making ends meet is because of rising oil/gas prices (which have underpaced inflation), rising insurance costs (Have your rates out paced inflation? Mine have gone down as I have gottern older), rising healthcare costs (Do you have insurance? Do your 6 figure generating jobs not pay for insurance?), and outsourcing (you still make 6 figures even though you have been outsourced?)

    All of these seem like contributors to the problem on the surface, it does make sense to me. This is typical of the liberal emotional appeal framework...."I am suffering because of this, this, and this and Bush in office so get him out" But it does not make sense.

    Outsourcing sucks for some people, but it is good for the economy. These companies are not saving a few $ as you put it. They are saving millions of dollars by outsourcing. This affects profit---net present value---stock price---people who are willing to invest---capital available to run business---number of people the company employ. We make the mistake of thinking that employees are the only stakeholders companies have. What about customers? What about stockholders? What about communites that are affected by companies shutting down? This IS a global market place. We have to compete with comparable international products that are cheaper.
     
  13. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    I make no attempt at judging folks who make into six figures but have trouble making ends meet. I don't know your situations nor circumstances.

    But I don't make anywhere near that much money. Not even close to half way to six figures. My wife does not work and has always stayed at home with our children. When we lived in the US we homeschooled. Here in Estonia, I send both children to a private school which isn't very cheap.

    Often it is our lifestyle that determines how much money we have to make ends meet, rather than the government.

    clint
     
  14. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    I don't know the housing costs in Estonia, but the average house in the Silicon Valley is going for around $650,000. (and that is for a 3 bd/2 ba). If you were unlucky, and purchased in the last 5 years, your house payment is around $3100 a month (even with low interest rates.

    It isn't hard to see that you have to make nearly six figures to own something average. Of course, we can all move to Kansas where you can still buy a nice place for $70-100K, but then again there are not many tech jobs there, and the average income is nearly half.

    (no offense, I have been to Kansas, and have absolutely no desire to live there)
     
  15. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    Re: Re: ...and it is more than just job growth

    Good, then volunteer to outsource your job. You will then see how great it is for the economy. I have not spoke to one person, not one, who supports the concept of outsourcing who doesn't have a vested interest in it. They people who state that "I am emotional" are almost always the ones making big-bucks by outsourcing. As in war, where it is easier to see someone else pay the price while you reep the benefit, a lot of American execs are making millions and touting the age old crap about being competitive. Well Mr. Exec, if I am unemployed, I can't buy your crap. Perhaps you can understand that!

    It used to be only lower level jobs were outsourced, the ones that people could lose and get retrained. But when you outsource top level engineers and scientists, what are they supposed to do? (oh right, work at some of the jobs that have been created by our smart President - you know - the ones as WalMart greeters <sic> )

    I will tell you a short story about the company that I work for. It outsourced all of manufacturing. Do you know what happened? Quality complaints increased by 6000%. In places like Singapore and Malaysia, there in NO loyalty and they could care less about quality because they know they can get another job (that has been outsourced to them) in a minute. (and unlike most American's who wouldn't leave a company simply for a buck or two an hour increase in pay, they jump ship for as little as 50 cents an hour more).

    Oh - BTW: Before you blame NAFTA, NAFTA means North American. It does not apply to overseas companies. Mexico is hurting bigtime now because their jobs are also being outsourced. I suspect that Canada is seeing their own pain as well.

    Just my two. Now, are you going to volunteer to give up your job? I didn't think so..
     
  16. DCross

    DCross New Member

    Re: Re: Re: ...and it is more than just job growth


    Actually....I DID give up my job. Not to outsourcing, but rather, I started my own bueiness.

    You state that all of this crap being fed by execs is BS and they are getting rich. You know what? In most cases you are right. But, who else benifits? The stock holders. Not the rich stock holders that liberals want everyone to envy. Rather, the working stockholders who were planning to retire this year, but can't because of the stock price of their company.
    I am in no way saying that outsourcing is fun for those being outsourced. Obviously, it is not. But, it does not mean that the economy would not improve. In the mid 1970s, there were 400,000 telephone operators in the US This was a good job back then. Now, there are 80,000. On the surface. this seems terrible. For those displaced, it WAS terrible. That is until they benefited later from the advances in switch technology that led to more products. They also saw tremendous increases in their company stock portfolios.

    Regarding making ends meet on six figures. Do you not see that you illustrated that this "problem" is not a function of the national economy? You said that houses are more in the Silicon Valley. is that arbitrary, or do the think it may be a function of the local economy? Do you think people would buy the houses if they don't want them? Do you that salaries may be less in the midwest, that this mitigated by the cost of living? So it is not logical to say, "I can't move to the midwest even though I would be better able to make ends meet....because my salary will be lower." This is the epidome of the liberal mentality...that utility takes a back seat to class labels. "I will no longer be able to call myself a six-figure earner." Oh, MY! At least ou have the freedome to move anywhere in the US. If you don't like you situation.....CHANGE IT. Don't be foolish enough to think that John Kerry will magically make living on a 6 figure income in a $650,000 house easier.

    I did not say anything about NAFTA. But now that you brought it up. We outsource a lot to Mexico. the mechinism is the same. It does not matter that the country is closer.


    Everyone must remember that the economy is global. We cannot ignore that. For companies to compete, we must remain competitive globally. Initially and on the surface, it seems terrible, but we are not talking about the short run. Through our economic history, when we moved from agriculture to industry to service to information. Many people have felt the pain of the transition. But still we prosper every year. We talk about outsourcing...but what about insourcing? We talk about exporting, but what about importing? We tout this made in America deal but what about those jobs that are created here from international companies?

    It is not as simple as emotional stories that are empty in substance. This issue need more evaluation.
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It's a little ironic that Republicans are supposed to be the party of self-centered greed, while they they are simultaneously being trashed for the implosion of the tech-bubble.

    The late 90's in Silicon Valley (where I live) were probably the greatest orgy of greed and avarice that our planet has seen since the tulip mania.

    Companies were rolling out IPOs every week, making their owners and favored insiders hundreds of millions of dollars, despite the companies having no earnings and in some cases no products. But everything was bid up on the expectation that anything "internet" was the road to riches. It was the stuff of dreams, but with very real rewards.

    Seen in retrospect, it was essentially a tremendous ponzi scheme. Those who got in (and out) early never have to work again. The poor fools who got in later lost everything.

    And when the house of cards collapsed, like all pyramid schemes eventually do, it all somehow became the fault of the Republicans.

    The kind of people who are blaming Bush now because they can no longer support their his-and-her house lifestyle are the same peopl who knowingly wiped out countless Americans' retirement investments.

    Now the cry is protectionism. Defend us from foreign competition so that we can continue to be paid several times the average world salary for the same work. And just forget the need for American companies to be able to compete with foreign competitors in international markets.

    But who in the world is gonna buy all those Silicon Valley products if international consumers can buy a competing product from China for half the price (and twice the profit margin to the Chinese)?

    If the savior is supposed to be superior American innovation and technical skills, that advantage is apt to evaporate as soon as the smart and industrious Asians come fully on line. They have more engineering students than we do and they certainly aren't idiots.

    It's not just the natural order of reality that Americans will continue to be richer than the rest of the world or that we will always somehow be inherently smarter than everyone else.

    The new millenium is going to bring tremendous changes to the existing world order. The United States (and Europe) aren't going to like it. By 2100, I fully expect our per-capita GDP to be trending toward the world mean. That means a major decline in our standard of living. That's what the future holds for us.

    But I think that it's foolish to blame either the Republicans or the Democrats for these changes. This is something that's a lot bigger than an issue of ephemeral partisan advantage in an election year. These changes are probably inevitable, given the global changes that the world is undergoing. They are changes that we don't control and which will continue no matter which American political party is in power.

    It's just Silicon Valley on a larger scale. If the West no longer has a true competitive advantage, then there's nothing to justify its continuing insistance that it somehow deserves a lifestyle superior to everyone else's, simply as a matter of inherent right.

    Frankly, in the face of all that, our inane political posturing is just spitting into the wind.
     
  18. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    I think you forgot that most consumer goods (computers, tvs, etc) are not purchased by the slave laborers in China, they are purchased by people in first world countries (Europe, North America - parts of the Middle East).

    To simply state that the 90's dotcom explosion was only about greed shows a basic lack of understanding of technology. In any run up on a new technology or commodity (oil included), there is a period of fever and explosion followed by a drop out of the players would could make the cut. It is part of business. It was hardly a pyramid scheme.

    The Republicans have been in power since 94 - and they have shown that they are just as inept as when the Democrats were in power. From Delay's and Gingrich's conduct, they are just as greedy and unethical as well.

    As a sidenote, one of the major lies about the American culture spread primarily by greedy executives is that we are lazy. The fact is that as a country, we are second only to the South Koreans in productivity per hour. (we also have the lowest amount of paid vacation in the western world).
     
  19. levieuxnegre

    levieuxnegre New Member

    Bush!!!

    I agree with you Carl_Reginstein.If a president cannot do his job, he needs to be fired!!!
     
  20. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    As to the first paragraph, I totally agree. Neither party is worth a darn. I don't see much real difference between them except rhetoric.

    as to the vacation comment, I am often told that Estonians can't believe that I only receive two weeks of paid vacation per year. They say that they just couldn't make it with less than a month or so per year.

    My earlier comments weren't meant to disparage you nor your situation, as I mentioned then we all come from differing circumstances. I simply wanted to show how it looked from my perspective.

    clint
     

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