"Islam...is not moderate:" Islam must modernize [or else be marginalized]!

A True Islamic Reformation
By Ibn Warraq

"If Islamic society is to become prosperous, free and democratic, a true reformation must take place within the Arab nations. The Arab governments of the Middle East must remove theocratic Islam as the most dynamic, element within their borders. Gradually secular education, respect for other faiths and the reflective gift of self-criticism must blossom to produce a harvest of individual liberty. How likely is such a reformation in today’s Islamic societies? And can Islam institute such reforms without betraying its very nature?

"There are some (I believe, misguided) liberal Muslims who deny any such transformation is necessary, that Islam need not be marginalized for liberty to flourish. These liberals often argue that the real Islam is compatible with liberal democracy, that the real Islam is feminist, that the real Islam is egalitarian, that the real Islam tolerates other religions and beliefs, and so on. They then proceed to some truly creative re-interpretation of the embarrassing, intolerant and misogynist verses of the Koran. But intellectual honesty demands that we reject just such dishonest tinkering with the Koran’s text, which, while it may be open to some re-interpretation, is not infinitely elastic. ***The truth is there is no real difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism - at most there is a difference of degree, but not of kind. There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. All the tenets of so-called Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Koran, the Sunna, and the Hadith - the defining texts of Islam - and elaborated in intimate detail by the classical Muslim jurists from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence, as well as by Shi’ite jurists.***"
[***emphasis Added***]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7906
----
Ibn Warraq is a pseudonym and author of "Why I am Not a Muslim."

 

Orson, why are you using a definition of Islam culled from an anonymous book called "Why I Am Not a Muslim"? Isn't this sort of like getting your description of Christianity from Madalyn Murray O'Hair, or your description of atheism from Franklin Graham?


Cheers,

 

Orson writes:

Is there a kind of immoderation that holds true of Wahhabiya legalists on one hand, and the more antinomian sort of Sufi mystics, the Ismaili esoterists or the millions of Javanese Abangans on the other?

It seems to me that there are a lot of different kinds of Islam out there, and that it's hard to generalize across them. (Just as it's hard to fit Christian fundies and Unitarians into one stereotype.)

Sorry. I'm in no mood quite yet to be led around by the nose or to be told to hate on command.

 

A very interesting book to read regarding this topic is Thomas Freidman's Longitudes and Attitudes . Relates a lot of his first hand encounters with residents of the area and their outlook on the future of their region, relations with the US and Europe and Israel.

 

We have this radio talk show host here in San Diego that loves to hate Moslems. I am amazed that he gets so many people to call him up and back up his uninformed bigotted opinion. Before 9/11 I don't think he knew a single thing about Islam. He's apparently done no study since but now he thinks that he's an expert. He claims that the Islam faith teaches hate and murder. I'm ashamed to say that this bigot used to be our mayor. That is until he had to resign in disgrace and go to jail for campaign "irregularities".

 

Look, I loathe Islamo-Fascism (Wahhabiya) and consider Saudi Arabia and its ideological bastard brats (al-Qaida) the worst theoretical and practical enemies of the United States since the fall of National Socialism in 1945.
I am deeply skeptical about "liberal Islam", since all liberalisms and all conservatisms are intracontextual (let a hundred flowers bloom and NEP were liberal communism, after all).
However, Tom Head has it absolutely right. Ibn Warraq's "Why I am not a Muslim" is an atheist tract, and is no more a balanced or scholarly review of Islam than its literary model, Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian", was a scholarly review of Christian belief and history.

 

Food for thought.

http://www.boloji.com/history/004.htm

This has not changed for centuries !

 

If by "Saudi Arabia" you mean the government and not the people, I couldn't agree more.


Cheers,

 

Orson, you probably already know that broad words like "Christianity" and "Islam," while useful labels for faith traditions, are no substitute for looking at what individual human beings believe. Are you really prepared to say that Farid Esack is not a real Muslim? That Protestants aren't real Christians? That Reconstructionists are not real Jews? Fundamentalist, statist 20th-century Islam is not the only form of Islam, any more than fundamentalist, statist 17th-century Christianity was the only form of Christianity. And there was a time in human history when Islam was the educated, tolerant faith, and Christianity was the unrefined conqueror. Remember that Geoffrey Chaucer began his astronomical writings with "In the name of God, the beneficent, the merciful" because, like most astronomers of his time, he learned from Muslims. If nothing else, why don't you attach some human faces to these people you hate so much:
http://www.americanmuslims.info

I can understand why you'd be frustrated at the fact that many liberals who have spent decades fighting for church-state separation here can turn on a dime and support the sovereignty of the Taliban's totalitarian theocracy overseas. But they're "many liberals," not "the Left." They are not a unit; they are individuals.

You're clearly intelligent enough to abandon these glib labels you use so often--the Europeans, the French, the Left, the South, the Catholics, the Arabs, the Muslims, and whatever labels I've missed--as the simplistic, lazy crayon sketches they are, and deal with your fellow human beings as other minds with volition and intrinsic worth. Stop falling into the trap of every two-bit hatemonger you come across. You can do better, and you deserve better.


Cheers,

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

MUSLIM CHILD BEATEN IN PENNSYLVANIA
Authorities urged to treat incident as hate crime

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 5/22/03) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today called on local and federal authorities to treat the beating of an 8-year-old Muslim child in Bensalem, Penn., as a hate crime. The Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group says the child was allegedly beaten earlier this month by three 13-year-old boys who made remarks such as "go back to Iraq" and "Saddam Hussein helper" during the attack.

According to the Muslim boy's family, he came home with a bloody mouth and spent one night in the hospital for observation. He is now terrified to go outside and cannot sleep at night. The alleged attackers, whose names are apparently known to police, have not been taken into custody.

"A disturbing pattern seems to be developing in which ordinary American Muslims, Arab-Americans and those perceived to be Middle Eastern, are subject to attack merely because of their religion, ethnicity or distinctive attire," said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. "Law enforcement authorities at both the local and national levels can help discourage these types of assaults by treating them with the seriousness they deserve."

In a similar incident on Monday in Pennsylvania, a 14-year-old Iraqi-American girl says she was beaten by a classmate while a crowd of students stood by yelling anti-Muslim comments. The victim said her attackers shouted "kill the Muslim girl…that's what she deserves" during the assault.

Also this week, a Sikh man who may have been mistaken for an Arab, was shot in Phoenix, Ariz. The victim said he heard his attacker shout "go back to where you belong," just before being shot. Police are treating the incident as a hate crime.

CAIR is encouraging victims of hate crimes to fill out report forms, which are available for download at: http://www.cair-net.org/ireport/Incident_Report.doc, or by calling 202-488-8787. CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, is headquartered in Washington, D.C., and has 16 regional offices nationwide and in Canada. Since its founding in 1994, CAIR has defended the civil and religious rights of all Americans.

 

As I am somewhat of a mongrel myself, I couldn't agree more.

Tony

 

Freidman cites that the inability of Arab states to separate church and state is the biggest impediment for them coping with the 21st century world. He uses India and Turkey as examples where both are democracies and have large Muslim populations but are prosperous states in the world. Other Islamic nations should see their success and pattern some form of government similar to either one. Some of these nations are so rooted in religious reckoning that it would take generations to alter their view of anyone non-Muslim - but you must start somewhere, perhaps a more liberal educational foundation for the young. They are the ones that have to be influenced.

 

President Bush: "We Do Not Fight Islam"

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html

 

This is really bad. Sikhs are not muslims.
Hate crime should stop.
If everybody in US start going back to where they belong .. the country will be empty (except for red-indians).

 

Just thought you should know...

Tom,

I agree with your obvious disgust for the incidents you reference. However, the source you use (from Ibrahim Hooper’s organization CAIR) makes a statement that I think requires some perspective. The press release stated, “Since its founding in 1994, CAIR has defended the civil and religious rights of all Americans.“


From the WorldNetDaily article, “The real CAIR” April 25, 2003

"Founded in 1994, CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association of Palestine, identified as a "front group" for the terrorist group Hamas, according to Steve Pomerantz, former chief of the FBI's counterterrorism section."

"Another ex-FBI counterterrorism chief, Oliver "Buck" Revell, has called the Islamic Association For Palestine – Hooper's former employer – "a front organization for Hamas that engages in propaganda for Islamic militants.""

"CAIR advisory board member Siraj Wahhaj was named by U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White on Feb. 2, 1995, as one of the "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators in the attempt to blow up New York City monuments," including the World Trade Center in 1993."

"How seriously can we take the charges of a group that called the conviction of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers "a travesty of justice"? How seriously can we take a group that called the conviction of Omar Abdel Rahman, who conspired to blow up New York City landmarks, a "hate crime"? How seriously should we take a group about which Steven Pomerantz, former FBI chief of counter-terrorism, says: "CAIR, its leaders and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups"?"

"Very seriously."

"But just don't assume the group has any credibility."

"The real goal of this group was made clear by its chairman, Omar M. Ahmad, who told a rally of California Muslims in 1998: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.""

 

CAIR has posted a rebuttal to Worldnetdaily here:
http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=1010&page=NR

While some Islamic groups unquestionably do promote a radical agenda, CAIR is not one of those groups. I have been on both their electronic and print mailing lists for years, and completely support their efforts on behalf of American Muslims. They are a pro-tolerance organization, not a pro-theocracy organization; their role is comparable to that of the NAACP. If you have any doubts, see for yourself:
http://www.cair-net.org

WND, on the other hand, is a quagmire of bizarre right-wing conspiracy theories. For example, this recent article argues that the U.N. is a front for world government--a world government that will, of course, practice "global taxation" and "gun control":
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32662


Cheers,

 

Well, Tom, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding CAIR (but I think we're both big enough to do that).

My point in bringing another perspective to the thread was not to promote WorldNetDaily or suggest that the writers or editors there are experts on Middle Eastern terrorist groups and their affiliates. However, I find the comments from the experts on Middle Eastern terrorist groups and their affiliates they cited (two former chiefs of the FBI's counterterrorism section) to be rather compelling, regardless of what news organization reports them.

 

Of course, even the "Native-Americans" came here from some other place. They just got here first so they get to claim that they're "native." It just depends on how far back in time you want to go.
Jack

 

C'mon Tom, you know that Orson is just a semi-anonymous troll who simply drops these items into the forum and then never responds to questions. He's not interested in discussing his own thoughts or opinions, he only wants to be provocative and stir things up.
Jack

 

*nod* And I can understand why you'd be worried about the backgrounds of a couple of the people involved, though I should mention that Ibrahim Hooper didn't found the group--he only serves as communications director. The actual founder and president is Nahid Awad, whose closet is (near as I can tell) as free of skeletons as anybody else's. Nice guy, too, by all accounts.

But CAIR isn't the only group working to make the lives of American Muslims easier. I was proud and mildly surprised when the National Association of Evangelicals and the Institute on Religion and Democracy voted to improve relations and engage in religious dialogue with Muslims. I have always felt that "only Nixon can go to China" when it comes to religious dialogue; liberal Christians talking to members of other faiths is all well and good, but it's the conservatives of each tradition who really stand to improve things. This is heartening, probably the most heartening development in Christian-Muslim dialogue since Pope John Paul II apologized for the crusades. And it's something for which President Bush probably deserves partial credit.


Cheers,