Frenchman in 2003 "France is almost finished."

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Orson, Apr 15, 2003.

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  1. Orson

    Orson New Member

    Imagina future France, mostly Muslim, governed--or at least influenced by Sharia, Islamic religious law--a Frenchman has.

    "France is almost finished. The nightmare is almost here. France has to know the horrors of the nightmare if you want her to have a chance to wake up. Sure, you may find some exceptions to the rule. France has some decent intellectuals: but they have about the same access to the mainstream media that dissenters had in the Soviet Union twenty years ago. France has bold politicians: one, maybe two if I want to be extremely generous. France still has genuine journalists: you could count them on the fingers of one hand. For the next years, come to France if you want, visit old monuments, but do not expect to be understood or appreciated by the locals. Behave as you would in a third world country; soon France will be a third world country. Perhaps it will wake up with a start, but who knows? Right now, if you read the polls, only 53% of the French hope the U.S. army will defeat Saddam: the rest hope the United States will be defeated and Saddam will win... "

    READ it and the ensuing debate--
    http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/003333.html#003333
    --then get back.

    Do we have a looming problem here? Or will someone argue that demographics aren't destiny?
     
  2. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    1. Actually, it's 53 percent who hope we will win; about one-third say they'd prefer to see us forced to withdraw (which is not the same as hoping for massive U.S. casualties):

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L31582823.htm

    So the premise behind the article is fabricated poll data. (You're a smart guy; I'm surprised you didn't double-check this yourself.)

    2. Those who want to see the U.S. forced to withdraw almost certainly do so based on anti-U.S. concerns, not pro-Saddam concerns. Remember: French citizens were also more likely than the norm to be pro-Soviet during the Cold War. Basically, they're afraid we're trying to get an empire on, and that fear can be traced back to Charles de Gaulle withdrawing support for NATO back in the sixties.

    3. Saddam is not an Islamic fundamentalist; he's a Baathist, a kind of bargain-brand socialist.

    4. Even if "the French" were jonesing for burqas, popular French attitudes on such matters as sex, art, and religion are completely incompatible with Islamic fundamentalism. I could cite statistical data on this (one recent poll had two-thirds of French citizens supporting legalized prostitution), but anyone who has seen a French movie lately already groks my point.


    Cheers,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2003
  3. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    ...but my status as such is debatable; I misread the piece to say that 53% oppose a U.S. victory. The article's basis is reliable poll data (the same data I used), not fabricated poll data. Mea culpa.


    Cheers,
     
  4. James Stirling

    James Stirling New Member

    Well… maybe. I had the experience once of interviewing (actually, auditing) what I thought was a Chinese couple in their home. They had all the usual decorative icons of their culture, spoke Cantonese, and gave every appearance of being Chinese. I was shocked to learn that they were born, raised and had lived in Bombay until they had immigrated to Toronto. There was no indication that Indian life or culture had ever touched them.

    There are plenty of other examples of cultural, ethnic, and religious groups that live within a larger group yet seem untouched by the larger surrounding culture. I think the only question is how does the larger culture recognize the smaller? The news author suggests that the smaller will overcome the larger. Recent historical examples (e.g., Germany, Uganda, Bosnia) suggest a different outcome may be the norm. Mutual respect and peaceful coexistence seem a distant third.
     
  5. plumbdog10

    plumbdog10 New Member

    I can't understand why conservatives in this country (USA) are in such a frenzy about France. Here's something that might make you sleep better at night:


    FRANCE DOESN'T MATTER TO THE WORLD. IT HASN'T MATTERED SINCE THE EARLY NINETEETH CENTURY. NOBODY GIVES A RAT'S ASS ABOUT FRANCE.

    George Bush would have conducted this war the same with or without the UN.
     
  6. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    The French have nukes. Just wait until they start flying toward your house to find out...
     
  7. GENO

    GENO New Member

    France has become even more insignificant in world affairs recently as has Germany and Russia. Yet Russia and France still have a major voice in world affairs based upon their UN security council permanent membership- if you use the UN as a gauge. You have 80% of this security council basically white/christian (Russia-christian?) whereas the world is hardly that composition. The UN would do well to have each Continent represented on the security council with rotation each 5 to 7 years - that would make Australia and Antarctica the only Permanent Members. Just my opinion - thanks
     
  8. plumbdog10

    plumbdog10 New Member

    Yea, France has power in the U.N. Security Council. The U.N Security Council has no power in the world. Example: the current war with Iraq.


    FRANCE DOESN'T MATTER-THE U.N. DOESN'T MATTER

    PS. Don't tell Bush that France has nukes. After saving the U.S. from those dangerous Iraqies, he might invade Paris.
     
  9. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I really don't understand why two democratic nations can't politely disagree on a foreign policy issue without tearing NATO and the U.N. Security Council apart.


    Cheers,
     

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