What's the Empirical Proof of Substandard Theological Docs?

It seems to me some hiding is being done behind GAAP and utility.

On this board many posts are made regarding theological education by those in these programs, by those who have finished such, and by those who publish on this topic and/or provide material on the web.

Yes, most here concur that no GAAP results in less utility , yet must the effect include less quality of learning too?. Does a lack of accreditation necessarily mean the absence of a competency equal to GAAP institution grads is being gained by the grads of such schools through their studies there? The program quality of Bob Jones, CES, Bethany of Dothan, and Trinity Seminary of Indiana as well as many others has been here either acclaimed or derided.

Regarding only the issue of rigorous learning, now, not wide acceptance of the degree, please tell me what evidence you have that the TTS or Bethany or BJU or any unaccredited theological school does not provide learning equal to that of the GAAP schools. Where's the proof?

I think it's time to stop hiding behind GAAP and utility and give empirical evidence instead of any supposed deficits or desirability in the effectiveness of the learning in such schools.

 

An interesting post, Bill

Bill,

Why not ask people who graduated from unaccredited schools which later sought accreditation? If they kept close ties to the school, they would know if the academic quality changed post-accreditation.

For example, why not write J. Dwight Pentecost and ask his opinion on this topic? He, like some other professors at Dallas Theological Seminary, received his terminal degrees there before Dallas sought and received regional accreditation (around 1970, if memory serves). This is by no means a criticism of Dallas Theological Seminary, which is a fine school. I suspect that there was absolutely no difference in the level of academic rigor before and after accreditation.

For that matter, if DTS President Mark Bailey got a burr under his saddle about accreditation and pulled out of both Southern Association and ATS, would the quality of instruction change? I think not. DTS would still be DTS, and a degree from there would be welcome in the same venues it is welcome today.

Dave

 

Hi Dave:

OK, we agree that Dallas was great before accreditation, is now great, and if DTS were to become unaccredited this greatness would likely decrease not at all.

My question is: What makes DTS great and others not?
If it is not accreditation, then what is it?

My proposal is that a school's genuine quality has something to do with the experiences and abilities a school provides its students. I believe these are measurable. Were this theory correct, then what are these features to be evaluated?? And how can such be measured? For if we do not measure quality instead of merely appealing to accreditation then how can we say that Bethany or Trinity or any other school does not equip its students similarily?

Are we just blowing smoke rings ?

 

Bill,

I agree with you that, "a school's genuine quality has something to do with the experiences and abilities a school provides its students." This is very true, and very difficult to quantify. I am not sure that it isn't too subjective to quantify.

My advice to people is to find an expert in the field who shares your worldview and ask them which are the best and worst schools. Better yet, ask several people who fit this description.

Accreditation is nice when it comes to financial aid, and it provides a guarantee of at least minimal quality, but it does no good when it comes to differentiating between adequate schools and great ones. This is even more difficult in a field like theology where some very credible schools shun accreditation due to their interpretation of the doctrine of separation.

Certainly a fun topic to wrestle with!

Dave

 

Perhaps you could sample some theses and dissertations from various schools through TREN. I recall seeing RA/ATS, TRACS, and unaccredited schools represented there as I was browsing. Evaluation of this might still be subject to claims of subjectivity, as each research topic would be different.

Keep brainstorming, Bill!

Dave

 

Are TRACS and unaccred theses represented at TREN? Didn't know that! I hear someone with the initials BG has a cool paper on Baptism sold there.

 

The only seminary I know of which requires at least minimal proficiency in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and German is Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary (unaccredited).

 

As one of the "deriders," I suddenly wonder if there is something on which Bill Grover and I actually agree; I, for one, have never supported the GAAP concept, and recall that several others began to recognize the weaknesses of GAAP during the MIGS controversy. (Remember, despite MIGS' weaknesses and the wonderful entertainment they provided to us, they did meet the GAAP criteria.)

By the way, I have, at one time or another, reprinted my comments on Bethany, CES, and Trinity here, and my determination that they are degree mills had nothing to do with whether or not they met GAAP. I have also stated, on the other hand, than Bob Jones U. is one of the best Christian schools academically (notwithstanding that it is historically a haven for redneck racism). Rather than GAAP, I have, of course, used the NIFI Criteria for many years (too long to reprint here); the former three fit the criteria used to identify degree mills, BJU does not.

 

These are my often repeated (with variations) views, repeated here still another time:

I think that learning happens throughout our lives. We learn in formal classes, we learn on the job, we learn from our friends and we learn from informal study. Learning is a private and personal thing that is unique to each of us.

But when we attend a university, often we are not only looking for learning, we are seeking a *degree*. A degree is a certification that our education meets some publicly recognized standard. We in turn use our degrees to validate our expertise to third parties who may not be personally acquainted with us and with whatever it is that we know.

Applying this analysis to accreditation, I think that a non-accredited school can definitely provide a student with a superior education. I expect that few non-accredited schools actually do that, but clearly some do. Hsi Lai is one of my favorites. They were CA-approved until recently, now they are a WASC candidate. If WASC approves them, that will be verification of their program. But in that case we could probably assume that the program had virtues even before the accreditation was granted.

Of course, self-educated people may have superior educations as well. A university is not even necessary in order for quality education to take place.

The problem arises when we move to degrees. If the university that grants the degree is unreliable, and if the standards that it upholds are a mystery, then it fails in its public certification role.

I don't think that I'm hiding.

There seems to be a suggestion here that we should accept that all non-accredited schools are excellent unless we can prove otherwise. But if we are supposed to have faith that all degrees are good, then why not simply forget formal education entirely, and have similar faith that everyone without exception is an authority, degree or no degree?

You see, degrees and accreditation are essentially the same thing. Both are academic certifications. A degree certifies the academic credibility of a graduate. Accreditation in turn certifies the academic credibility of the institution that grants the degree.

Degrees can't function very effectively unless the institutions that grant them are credible. Admittedly, there are a number of ways that a school can demonstrate its credibility, just as there are a number of ways that an individual can demonstrate his or her knowledge and skills. But in most cases degrees and accreditation have the social and professional recognition, and that in turn makes them useful.

 

TREN

Bill Grover: "Are TRACS and unaccred theses represented at TREN? Didn't know that! I hear someone with the initials BG has a cool paper on Baptism sold there."

Bill,

TRACS and unaccredited schools listed by TREN include Northwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Southern Evangelical Seminary, Tennessee Temple University, Bob Jones University, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, as well as degreeinfo.com favorites Columbia Evangelical Seminary and Oxford Graduate School.

Of course, TREN has all the big name schools represented, including Western Seminary. Their standardbearer is listed under W.G., though.

Dave