Warning on Some USA Theology Degrees

The warning is they take too long and require too much!

In my better moments I worry about hurting the feelings of others. In my worst moments I wallow in self pity. This thread is perhaps occasioned by the latter, but my experience may direct some to avoid what by some may be best avoided!

This board is "degree info", so, here is some info: a rose by another name may be the same, but a 'masters' really is not! While some members here did the MA, PhD in four years, others here were plugging away for four years just to get the 'masters'. Why? Because some US seminaries require too doggone much , maybe?!

Consider Dallas TS as an example: http://www.dts.edu/academics/academicprograms

My word, the DTS's masters is 120 semester units! My Point Loma MA was, I think, just 30! No, 36 because I did no thesis there. Now, don't be fooled by suppositions that all but 1/3 of these DTS credits are 'ministerial studies fat.' No, No! Rather, there is extensive preparation in Hebrew, Greek, Bible, Systematic Theology, and historical theology! Bad, nasty stuff! One is being tossed into a rushing river of academics, swim or sink, one is not a lazily floating on his back in a salty San Diego bay ! Let us flee such grueling experiences! This is not just number of hours , understand, but rigorous content. Of course, shorter masters are rigorous too. But, if one rigorous masters is 36 hours and another one is 90, well, do you see the difference!? DTS expects the masters candidates to exegete in Hebrew and Greek! ! ALL candidates!! Heaven forbid! Even Ministers are no exception, imagine that: a degree in Christian Theology that requires one, even ministers, to exegete the Christian Scriptures!! What will they think of next! Further, if one wishes the Phd there as well, well, another three years minimum! This, seven plus years, is just too much!



The quicker route is to go MA to PhD. Not the USA ThM to PhD (or ThD). You decide the importance of the DTS ThM sort of regimine and expectations. Such will cost 2-3 more years of your time. And, many think that a masters is a masters is a masters anyway! So, be warned!

 

There is no doubt that Theology is one of the most intensive fields. You could in theory get an RA PhD with as little as 76 graduate hours (MA-36 & Touro PhD Health S - 40). Compare that with even a DMin program at over graduate 120 credit hours (including foreign/ancient languages). A ThD in the US is even far worse in terms of the number of credits.

North

 

Great post, Bill.

About a month ago I asked a DTS student (who's working on his MTh) if he would pursue a doctorate.

"No way!" he said, almost shouting. "I'm already burned out with this master's."

He went on to say that he wanted to have a life and didn't want to spend the rest of it in school.

Roscoe

 

Would y'all like a little cheese with your whine?

Gentlemen, you fail to note that Dallas Theological Seminary, long known as the Harvard of the evangelical schools, is an exception to the rule. The 120-credit degree is a Master of Theology, not a Master of Divinity - it is the same as a normal 90 cr. M.Div. plus separate 30 cr. Th.M.

Moreover, to move from a Th.M. to a Ph.D. at Dallas takes only 32 credits, as opposed to the normal 60 or more credits required by other schools.

You want a shorter route? Go somewhere other than Dallas. It's that simple. But realize that in the overall scheme of things, to earn a Th.M. or Ph.D. at Dallas takes no more time than it does at any other RA/ATS seminary program that offers Ph.D. programs.

 

Re: Would y'all like a little cheese with your whine?

But much longer than most secular MA-PhD programs.

North

 

North: Thanks for not telling me to scrape the self pity off my boots.

Roscoe: I feel for the DTS guy. I just don't know whether the US Thm is worth four years , though I prize the results. But the masters should whet the appetite not kill it. I wonder if it could not be done in say 60 units instead of 120. Western has a neat two year MA in exegetical theology which I'd recommend.

 

Is this the guy to "blame"?

I see the DTS founder, Lewis Chafer Sperry, got a doc from a school in France. Interesting.

http://cantonbaptist.org/halloffame/chafer.htm

Roscoe

 

a braggin' boss

I have a boss with a ThM from DTS. And he's been known to brag about the amount of work he did. When I hear this, I can't help but think, "If you're so smart, where's your doctorate?"

He doesn't have one. He stopped at the ThM.

For what it's worth.

Roscoe

 

Re: Would y'all like a little cheese with your whine?

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Ummm, really?? At Fuller it is MA plus 72 units. What is that 104 total? At DTS it is 120 plus 30 or 150! But my own ThM was four years too..that's a point of my post. The issue is that entry to the DTS PhD is ThM not MA! That's the diff.

Yes, pass the cheese

 

Re: Is this the guy to "blame"?

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I occasionally use Chafer's original 8 vol Systematic Theology. Don't feel it is quite up to par with say Hodge, Dorner, Pannenberg, or Barth, but, then, if I need a dispensational viewpoint I'll use Chafer. He certainly is easier to read than Barth.I have no doubt of the quality of the academic heritage he left in DTS. At Western practically all the profs were ThDs (only recently did DTS begin the PhD) from DTS.

 

I knew it couldn't be easy to count angels on the head of a pin! On a more serious note, do you feel that studying theology brings a person closer to god or more spirtual? I know next to nothing about theology and feel limited in the spiritual arena, but have a hard time equating theology with god. It seems more like the difference between studying accounting and running a fortune 500 company. A person could know accounting inside and out and still not be able to keep a hamburger stand open. On the other hand, there are obviously some very spiritual folks with theology degrees. Were they drawn to theology or does the study of theology move them closer?

 

The following is largely a rehash of comments posted to AED a few years ago.

In my opinion, 30-60 credit M.A. programs are too narrow for someone wanting to teach the Bible or theology. Specializing in one particular area (e.g., Old or New Testament, theology, church history, etc.) at the graduate level and topping that off with a specialized dissertation in the same field is like boring a 16-bit hole into the side of a mountain. Someone teaching the Bible or theology needs greater breadth than that.

For example, I don't think a person can be a competent New Testament and Greek scholar without a good grasp of classical Hebrew and the Old Testament. Yet, many M.A. programs in New Testament do not require any work in the Hebrew language. Similarly, I don't think a person can be a cracker jack theologian just studying biblical theology. Though the text of the Bible is the primary authority in doing Christian theology, knowing how those before us have understood the text is vitally important. Thus, a good theology teacher should be familiar with the general field of church history. Further examples abound.

Pursuing a three year M.Div. and following it with the one year Th.M. (or pursuing a four year Th.M. such as that offered by Dallas Theological Seminary) provides the most well-rounded education at the graduate level. This kind of education will serve as a solid foundation for doctoral studies, and ultimately make one a better Bible or theology teacher. This is especially true in light of the fact that competency in biblical or theological studies requires the ability to handle several overlapping fields.

Though admittedly anecdotal, my experience as the director of research for an international parachurch ministry confirms this. I regularly offer work-for-hire contracts to researchers with graduate training in biblical, theological, and apologetic studies, and those possessing the Th.M. evince a greater breadth of knowledge than those with only the M.A. That is not to say that I haven't employed some excellent researchers possessing only the M.A. They just have more limitations and require more support than those with the Th.M. I can't comment on the M.A./Ph.D. combination since all of the Ph.D. graduates or candidates I've employed also hold the Th.M.

I remember when I spoke with John Sailhamer (noted evangelical Old Testament scholar) about my search for the right graduate program. He said that two decades of teaching at a handful of noted schools had convinced him that students with a fourth year of graduate training pull significantly ahead of those who stop after two or even three years. There's just some sort of seasoning that takes place over time, and the fourth year seems to be the key.

I should conclude by saying that there are many competent individuals whose academic pedigree includes the M.A. and Ph.D. in a narrow field of study. However, it is important to point out that these individuals possess a great deal of competency outside of their specialized fields, largely due to effort expended outside the degree program itself. While the breadth of knowledge is ultimately what matters, that breadth not acquired in the degree program itself is difficult to demonstrate on a curriculum vita (unless one has a solid publication record or substantial teaching experience). This is especially important to consider in light of the tremendous number of applications a college or seminary receives (I recently talked to one department chairperson who receives 100 applications each month!), and the fact that most department chairpersons will only take the time to scan an applicant's general credentials before determining whether further reading is worthwhile.

 

What about those with undergrad degrees?

Ed,

Suppose the student has a BA in Theology/Biblical Studies with courses in Greek and Hebrew, etc. Should he/she be required to go the distance in the manner you've suggested?

Roscoe

P.S. Haven't seen you around for a while. Thanks for the input.

 

Re: What about those with undergrad degrees?

I personally think this depends upon the nature of the undergraduate training, both with respect to rigor and scope.

With respect to rigor, I don't know of any undergraduate programs in Bible or theology that equal the rigor of quality graduate studies in the same. This is particularly true with respect to the biblical languages, and many of the theology and Bible courses at a Christian liberal arts school or Bible college are mere surveys. More detailed attention is needed at the graduate level.

With respect to scope, I don't think the undergraduate degree can approximate even half of a four-year Th.M. The reason for that is that most undergraduate programs require a bevy of general education courses, leaving few credits for the actual major. For example, a regionally accredited Christian liberal arts school at which I occasionally teach requires 125 credits for a bachelor's degree, with 45 of those credits assigned to the major in biblical studies. That's a far cry from the 120 or so credits needed at the graduate level to earn the Th.M.

For what it's worth, I was one of those persons who had an undergradute degree in Bible and theology, yet chose to go the full route of the Th.M. While my undergraduate training greased the skids for more advanced graduate studies, the former couldn't replace the latter.

Of course there are exceptions. A generally brilliant student, a native speaker of Hebrew, or a mature individual with years of appropriate study, for example, may be able to take a few shortcuts without being shortchanged. In the end, the important thing is that all the bases are covered--and covered well.

 

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That is a problem for me, Dave. There should be a correlation, but I'm oft not very spiritual!

 

I appreciate your weariness, Bill. We both know the route to the Th.M. is long and arduous. You spent considerable time commuting; I left my ministry, moved across the country, and lived in less than desirable conditions for nearly four years. In those moments when I was tempted to question my sanity and save my time and money, I was reminded of the importance of my work. I was also reminded of the fact that others down the road would be affected by the approach I took toward my studies. Indeed, the members of the congregation I pastored, the college students I have taught, the researchers I mentor, and the people influenced by my writing have all had my educational decisions (among other things!) thrust upon them. I still remind myself of these things as I pursue yet further studies.

I suspect that many a young medical student has lamented the uphill climb to the M.D. If there were a recognized shortcut to the credential and I knew my doctor had opted for such, I would find a new doctor! When the gloves go on and scalpel comes out, I want the person cutting me open to have taken the most rigorous course of study and to have taken it with utmost seriousness. This is what you have done with your education in theology. Rather than resent it, you should rejoice in it. You've proven your tenacity en route to the Th.M.; I have little doubt you'll do the same on the way to your doctorate(s).

 

Re: Re: Warning on Some USA Theology Degrees

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Thanks , Ed. No, I do not resent it. My tongue in cheeck did not come clearly through. While a four year ThM is long, it was worth it, I agree.

Blessings,

 

I think it could indeed do much to prepare one for doctoral studies. Such an arrangment seems slim on the languages though. I completed 12 hours of Greek grammar (not counting New Testament exegesis courses that heavily incorporated Greek) and 11 hours of Hebrew grammar in my Th.M. program. Incidentally, I had 6 hours of Greek and 6 hours of Hebrew under my belt before commencing studies at DTS. I am not suggesting language requirements should be beefed up just because that's what I did; I truly believe this volume of work is necessary for one to gain advanced proficiency in the languages.

I also think a curriculum should incorporate Old and New Testament Introduction courses (which, as you know, focus on matters pertaining to ancient history, archaeology, canonization, biblical criticism, etc.). I'd like to see it topped off with an internship of some sort, where the student gained supervised experience teaching in an academic setting, attended academic meetings, graded papers, etc. This would push things in the direction of a 90 credit, academically-oriented degree. Sounds like the Th.M. minus the communication, counseling, and Christian education courses!

 

Yeah, I forgot introduction including canon and text , I also forgot OT, NT theology, let's see that's , say, 10hrs, with your language addendum( +10) and internship(6) we're at about 86! Then I was pretty skimpy too on English Bible. OK, up to 120! No way around it I guess!