UK teaching positions available for Love not Money

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by John Roberts, Dec 2, 2002.

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  1. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    A colleague dropped on my desk this morning a copy of Job classifieds/recruitment positions (IEE Recruitmant Nov, 2002) at three UK universities.

    The universities in question are UMIST (Manchester), Northumbria and the University of Edinburgh

    The position available are in the Engineering dept for teaching postions/researchers and department chairs with a mesely salary of between 25,000 pounds to 35,000 pounds for the chair postions.

    These positions require people with Masters and Doctorates and experience to boot.

    With the cost of living in the UK equal to ONE DOLLAR = ONE POUND, I can only say those Profs are doing it for the Love of it and not the Money.

    J.R(ic)
     
  2. manjuap

    manjuap New Member

    My opinion goes as below..

    Its always better to do consulting or with the Knowledge of Business/Management (with either MBA or DBA) and experience (In our own field)...

    WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ON YOUR OWN.......

    You will have satisfaction and NO LIMIT TO EARN $$$
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2002
  3. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Yes this is why I teach High School in Ontario. I couldn't earn enough to feed a cat in the UK!

    Roy Maybery
     
  4. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    Roy, thats why the 50's, 60's and 70's saw so many including techys leave that damn place, but this no longer happens I hear?

    Even today as an example, a factory worker at Fords Jaguar plant (working M-F, no weekends) in Liverpool makes more money than the university teacher, possibly takes evening/weekend courses at Liverpools JM, in the hope of achieving the higher qualification that would allow them to get the management position or teaching job in the UK, because they think they will make more money. You see the industrial tide has changed in the UK especially with the EC & social contracts, everyone is equal.

    The university Doctor teaching, the primary/secondary school teacher, the Engineer and the factory worker, money is almost the same for these jobs. Higher Education is not for everyone, social staus maybe, satisfaction another or what you give is what you get.

    J.R(ic)
     
  5. manjuap

    manjuap New Member

    Why we think on the lines of becoming Entrepreneurs?? Just my thoughts.

    :confused:
     
  6. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    Sounds like the American rule of instant Millionaire with a 'Flash in the pan' idea. Rule number one in becoming an entrepreneur, I think requires an idea, commodity and the market or poor sods that will buy the idea.

    Why not sell your idea on TV, why not become a consultant, why not teach, why not teach those that want to teach and last but not least be comfortable working for a living.

    Its not about freedom to movement, free spirit, being your own boss (that is a tough one) its not about money, its about education and the need or the lack of need to have the degree to function in todays world.

    I thought we were/are on a DL website not a Business/Marketing or entrepreneur discussion group. But if you want to discuss how to become an entrepreneur, lets dicuss this, since I think you mean any degreed or non-degreed person can be an entrepreneur even if they were selling trinkets, bits & bobs in the flee market, services to clients or simply suplementing their income driving taxi..these are all entrepreneurial ways?

    Please give me your idea's on your comment on becoming an entrepreneur?

    J.R(ic)
     
  7. manjuap

    manjuap New Member

    I have always inclined towards doing something on my own. But I would do in my field (Information Technology).
    Infact last year my ideas got into shape and the only problem we (I had a friend of mine working with me) faced was with the “investment”. Even though the VC’s liked our ideas the IT Bubble burst made them to think again and were hesitant.
    I am not talking “instant millionaire” idea. My business plan would see a break-even only after 6~8 months and then starts growing.
    My idea is not for sale. I would like to teach but only part-time and would teach technology related subjects blended with Business concepts/ideas.
    Being my own boss takes courage and self-confidence


    Main idea of me doing MBA is to manage business more efficiently if I can start in the near future or help any Business outside to do so.

     
  8. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    In my business there has always been a pre-occupation with VC (vulture capitalists) especially for start up's. Particularly when incubator businesses, Trading companies, outsourcing is the new business model for the 21st century, other than under the table business.

    The lack of business savvy, marketing plans, potential market is critical for those new entrepreneurs to be successful. Many an idea(list) may have the total solution given where all the competion is at today, however manyan idea cant get there because of either, 1) Cash/funding, 2) the idea's person wont share the information because they are affraid it will be stollen. or 3) Total control freak, with no business plan.

    Basically Manjup, your right, everyone should be an entrepreneur, which most are, from the guy buying the lottery ticket to those that sell hotdogs on the street corner. BTW, did you know that the hotdog vendor has one of the highest GM and pre-tax profitable businesses..

    It takes Gusts, money, drive, ambition all of which dont require an education like that MBA (wouldn't harm though), but to know where an how to get it done using that MBA or Banker is a key factor to entrepreneural success.

    Cheers and good luck with your MBA & future business opportunities, and I assume from your last response your business might be an IT solutions company, that provides training, may even offer the MCSE etc, provide hardware & software devlopment and be a fix-it company to those other companies that need your services. Just a guess.

    J.R(ic)
     
  9. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    John

    Long may you work in a protected environment but for the rest of the world there is a recession in progress and the simple fact is that hiring is down (in some places non-existent, and worse, thousands of well paid employees recently terminated).

    In open markets, employees attract the value of their marginal product. If they have being earning high economic rents they face unemployment or a lowering of their incomes to stay in work. That some universities in the UK are recognising this, and defying national pay contracts, to drop the offer wage to academic staff is a good sign for their finances (though a bad sign for those involved). I bet that many people will apply for these jobs, including those with past experience at higher rates, and be glad to do so as the alternative is awesome for them.

    It is not only the UK that these pay trends are spreading. The North American press is reporting former well paid academics and city analysts looking for work at any pay they can get, including pumping gas.

    As for dollar = pound parity, it is actually about 1.5: 1. For the Canadian dollar it is marginall worse for employees in Canada than the UK. And the pay of Professors is considerably more than the figures you quote (nearly double, even in cash strapped institutions).
     
  10. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    As a frequent visitor to the UK I believe John was referring to the cost of living. It seems to me what costs a dollar in the USA costs a pound in the UK.
     
  11. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    Prof Kennedy, are you saying that the 3 ad's from reputable UK universities that stated the salaries I mentioned are not true?. I can send you PDf's if you wish, after all your own university says 35,000GBP for Chair positions are in the Engineering Dept.

    To me it looks like you personally are at the top of the scale in some administration job (what is it you do anyway..I never got to hear) and not at the chair level..go ask the employment centre at Edinburgh or those chairs in engineering if the 35K.GBP is correct..I believe it is.

    Now for the currency thing, as picked-up by Ian, cost of living 'Old Chap' imagine a litre of Petrol, a litre of Milk, a months rent, electricity, phone, McDonalds all cost in pounds what we in the USA pay in dollars, (meaning if you didn't get it the first time)French Fries ONE POUND in the UK, ONE DOLLAR IN THE USA.

    Now back to the salary thing; a USA/CDN probably makes more than his UK counter part (based on the classifieds), has more disposable income, therefore, this higher education, UK university teacher thing is for LOVE and not money, that is the Brit snobery thing.

    BTW. there has been a bloody recession in place for over 20 years all over the world, so whats your excuse, your still making your salary guessed at around 50K++ GBP so it doesn't bother you, no kids, no mortgage..what do you care..a total & classic British conservative snob attitude , then again being from the North East you could be a reformed Labourite made good.

    As discussed on other threads, sure we know new immigrants from all over the world coming to North America (even in the UK)with Degrees, MBA's, C.Eng & Ph.D and some do medial jobs like driving taxi's in the beginning ..its called paying your dues, but you know, eventually they too get there, with the exception of the local yokels, that are high fliers, caught with their pants down, the same applies to the UK or anywhere else for the same professionals..so what.

    Would you like to come to the land of milk and honey, start fresh, drive taxi before getting a decent job..doubt it..because you live in a protected environment.

    The UK still is has one of the Best social security programs in the world..free..free..free, all you have to do is ask. The difference I guess, is that North America as a whole is a PAY AS YOU GO, meaning that if you dont produce you starve, but this will never happen in the good old UK.

    In closing, your comment about me personally "working in a protected environment" you dont know the half of it, but unlike you (god forbid if Prof Kennedy lost that 50K GBP job of yours and imagine if you wern't to get any redundancy pay)..now then, all I said in my original post was "look at the comparison of pay scales for the higher education in the UK based on the classified ad's..does it not look like UK professors do their thing for LOVE not money"

    However according to you you stating and saying the classifieds are hogwash QUOTE; "And the pay of Professors is considerably more than the figures you quote (nearly double, even in cash strapped institutions"

    Gavin, your living in a dream world and it is you that is living in a protected environment.

    Yes this is now getting down to personalities, and Gavin why did you leave industry to go into Academia in the first place..spell it out, the truth man, I want to hear it, was it for Love, Money or Protected environment?

    J.R(ic)
     
  12. manjuap

    manjuap New Member

    What happened to the imperial loot?

    With the amount of loot.. UK should have been the richest nation on the face of earth. Everybody should be getting 100k Pounds as salary.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2002
  13. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    John

    What has come over you? Why all the emotion?

    I was only pointing out that the adverts do not give the whole story. There is a recession on at present in the job market here and in the US. A person in the 'head-hunting' business says that their firm has people on it used to several hundred k+ (pounds not US dollars) who cannot find work at all even at 30k. Now this is not something to get emotional with the messenger about.

    If at last, some universities are begining to address their salary packages (which includes in academe a pension scheme largely paid for by the employers, index linked) to the labour market and a current willingness to accept lower starting salaries, then fine. It is about time that academe ceased to be a 'protected environment' (I speak only of the Uk where I vote and do not export these views to other protected environments as in North Amercia).

    Professorial salaries are seldom published other than the starting salary of c.35k and this has long been true. Even in the internal accounts there is no published range for the grade as there is for all other grades. This is due to the national pay bargaining rules and for as long as I can remember it has ever been thus.

    I am a regular visitor to North America and have been for many years, hence I know a litre of petrol does not cost the same in the US as in the UK. You seem to have some sort of emotional problem with the UK and at least you are principled enough to leave it.

    I do not wish to be drawn into a 'mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the most principled of all' type of debate. If you read some other threads here you will note my objections to the tenure system (and its abuse) and my decision over twenty years ago to forego tenure and accept the same conditions as non-academic staff, i.e., open to three months notice. This is not anything better than you would do, I know, but it was my small gesture in, I hope, the right direction.

    As for the rest of your message, well, interesting but more suited to a late Friday night debate in a bar.
     
  14. John Roberts

    John Roberts New Member

    No emotion, since I have no feelings even on this brisk -10C morning in Toronto. I like debates & dialogue which at times sees this board and it's members responses and double talk or the lack of clarity in their responses, including deception and inuendo's that troubles me.

    Gavin, you cant state on one hand in your first reply to this post that;

    a) Gavin said, quote; "That some universities in the UK are recognising this, and defying national pay contracts, to drop the offer wage to academic staff is a good sign for their finances (though a bad sign for those involved). I bet that many people will apply for these jobs, including those with past experience at higher rates, and be glad to do so as the alternative is awesome for them".

    and then on the other hand you made the same response,

    b) Gavin said, quote; "And the pay of Professors is considerably more than the figures you quote (nearly double, even in cash strapped institutions)".

    You know at times trying to follow the boards respondents can be confusing at best, but for today I think I shall sit back along with you in my complacent protected environment (I wish) and raise a toast (Scotch or Beer) to all higher education and trying to remember my old school master in the 6th form (much like Mr Chips), who once said if you think your not going to win a debate and when the emotions set in..back-off and look in the mirror at yourself to see how foolish you look. (American terminology).

    Have a great weekend, and lets see if we can get back to a more interesting topic next week.

    PS. Do you know where the fastest DBA programme on record is offered?

    Cheers.

    J.R(ic)
     
  15. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    John

    Afore ye go on your break, let me reconcile the two quotes you give.

    They make sense when you stop to think that a waged staff in a university consists two sets: those already in a set and those who apply to join a new intake set. In Universities, the existing professors have their individual salries at varying levels and not in a fixed or published range. Moreover, their individual slaries are not published.

    The new applicants are quoted the starting salary (in this case 35k). Given they want a job as a Professor, they apply and are willing to take the starting salary or very close to it. That the Universities are reacting to the current market conditions is good news for the university's finances - they are not joining a bidding war to get a named person. Hence they advertise in the press.

    It is not like in an undifferentiated labour market where what is paid to Peter is also paid to Paul - and Fred, and Charlie, Eugene and Mary. Will any of this group in a university object at the low pay of the incommers, as they would in another employment? Unlikely, because the alternative is a cut in the departmental budget to pay for the increase above £35k.

    OK?
     

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