a deep, philosophical question

Will good Atheists go to Hell?

the question asked by http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/atheists.htm .

what do you guys think? i think they do

 

I would suppose that if they were really atheists, they wouldn't care one way or the other. If they did care, they wouldn't really be atheists....

hhhmmmmm

 

Bill Grover is correct. If atheists are correct in their belief then in all liklihood Hell does not exist and therefore one couldn't go there. bibbouk appears to have made the assumption that atheisits are wrong in their belief that God doesn't exist. If we want to assume that God does exist and that, therefore, atheists are wrong, then the question becomes more interesting. Since bibbouk clearly stated that (s)he is interested in a "deep" philosophical conversation then I'd invite him/her to propose a definition of a "good atheist." Since virtually the entire history of ethical debate has hinged on the issue of the definition of "good" (or something similar) then this could turn out to be very long thread indeed.
Jack

 

I don't consider this to be a deep philosophical question. In fact, I don't see it as being a philosophical question at all.

The question of who is and isn't going to hell, and about whether atheism has any relevance to the answer, only makes sense within a religious belief-system that includes stuff like hell and some obligation to properly acknowledge that system's reigning deities.

Not all religions include hells. Not all of those that do make rebirth into the hells a function of worshipping deities. Some Indian traditions make rebirth into hells a matter of karma, hence arguably more a matter of ethics than of cult. (Of course, most of these traditions see worship as a merit-making activity, so the distinction blurs.)

But ultimately, it seems to me that these are *theological* questions that only exist within each particular religious system. Hence, they aren't properly philosophical questions at all, in my opinion.

Of course, as Jack Tracey points out, you could draw any number of philosophical questions out of this situation.

 

Yes. For the "good" ones, however, residency is not required.

Have you not read Bear's Guide to Distance Hells? Shame!

 

Re: Re: a deep, philosophical question

I think that this is a psychological point, not a philosophical one.

Imagine that an anonymous caller phones you and tells you that he is going to kidnap, rape and then murder your ten year old daughter.

You would probably have a strong emotional response, even if you knew full well that the threat was empty, and even if you had no daughter at all.

The call would be an attempt to mess with your head. It would be an obvious provocation.

Well, atheists and agnostics, let alone followers of all the other religions, may well react in much that way when told by evangelists that they must drop everything that they currently believe and believe just as the evangelist does, or else face excruciating torture for eternity.

Even if there is no credible chance of the threat ever coming to fruition, the fact that somebody would try to manipulate their beliefs in that way through the use of fear is apt to draw a cold response.

 

No successful religion has ever been founded on the principle that its own members go to hell.

I agree with Jack that there don't seem to be any substantial philosophical questions here; and there are few theological questions that are relevant to me, as a freelance monotheist (to borrow Karen Armstrong's term), who suspects that this "Brand X goes to hell" business is nothing more than a religious marketing ploy. But from a fundamentalist point of view:

- A biblical argument can be made that "hell" is actually annihilation. I'm neither interested in nor prepared to make this argument myself, but I have seen it made, and made reasonably well. If this is the case, then good atheists get exactly what they expect to get.

- Another argument could be made that atheists fulfill at least the "walk humbly" standard, and that explicit belief in God is less important than implicit belief in God (assuming all moral behavior comes from God). This is admittedly a liberal approach.

- According to Dante, the level of hell reserved for "virtuous heathens" isn't all that bad. This seems like a compassionate and theologically orthodox approach to the issue, though Dante had no way of gaining direct knowledge about the subject (or did he?).

- C.S. Lewis remained agnostic on the question, arguing that the Bible does not specifically say what happens to virtuous unbelievers.

In any case, I suspect the core of fundamentalist Christianity would say that not only do good atheists and heathenish theists like me go to hell, but so do the likes of Mohandas Gandhi, Albert Schweitzer, Mary Livermore, Dag Hammarskjold, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Thich Nhat Hanh, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Elie Wiesel (and, depending on who you ask, you can throw Mother Teresa and St. Francis of Assisi into the mix). On the flipside, there are a few Muslims who believe that Christians go to hell (despite the fact that the Qur'an explicitly says they don't), some Hindus and Buddhists who believe that Christians will end up spending a substantial amount of time in multiple hells, and a few very small (<30 member) cults teaching that all non-members go to hell, regardless of their religion.

If Pascal's Wager is going to be a standard here, one has to question the moral value of any soteriological system that sends the self-serving and intellectually dishonest to heaven while sending altruistic straight-shooters to hell.


Cheers,

 

Re: Re: Re: a deep, philosophical question

Agreed. I would argue that the threat of a fundamentalist's hell, like the threat of undead vampires or anus-probing aliens, has just enough oomph to be frightening on its own without relying on external plausibility.

When one threatens hell, what one is doing, in effect, is making God into a monster--arguing that the universe is ruled by a profoundly evil and sadistic being. (From my point of view, that perspective is far, far more blasphemous than atheism.) And like all monsters, he does not actually have to exist to be scary.


Cheers,

 

I agree that this is not a philosophical but a theological problem of most interest to those who are Christians. As an evangelical, I feel, unlike Tom, that Hell is quite obviously a Scriptural tenet. I have looked at opposing "Biblical" arguments and personally find them much wanting. I don't feel that here is the place to discuss it, but were any wishing to, I'll meet him/her in private messages. Perhaps we could also discuss if Arminians go to hell( hee, hee).

 

I should add that I'm not saying Scripture affirms that there is no hell--I remain agnostic on the issue of whether hell as it is Scripturally understood actually exists, and in any case am not theologically orthodox enough to base my beliefs primarily on Scriptural concerns--but rather that this is one of many viewpoints that a conservative might hold without necessarily disrupting the orthodoxies of his belief system.

I should also clarify that my remark a moment ago about blasphemies was not directed at all people who believe in hell, or even all people who believe that unbelievers go to hell, but rather exclusively on people who are trying to frighten unbelievers into converting for fear of hell (e.g. "Better do this or you'll go to hell!"). In all my ranting about religious intolerance, I should make more of an effort not to practice it myself.


Cheers,

 

==========================================

Me too Tom! If there is a Hell, the world is lucky that I am not God else we'd have to build a bigger place for all the sinners!

==========================================

 

well I'm an atheist, and I hope I go to Hell, assuming such alternate "after-lives" exist. Why? Better parties; better duties.
The bordom of Heaven, as advertized is no fresh Hell (to barrow from Dorothy Parker).

If you doubt it, I dare you to watch "Bedazzled," (1966).

--Orson

 

Athiests have been predestined to go to hell, it really isn't their fault, they had no choice in the matter--or at least Augustine, Calvin, Presbyterians and Bill Grover think so.

 

=====================================

Cite where Calvin says it is not their fault, if you've come to know him by that 4x3 picture. Failing that, explain how if as Arminius and Wesley say predestination is based on faith from eternity divinely seen, how it could be temporally avoided that that one in his time would do else but believe and how those not foreknown as believers could do ought but disbelieve. If it is foreknown it is fixed. Proginosko renders it no less certain than prohoridzo! So, do you, Russell Morris, deny God's omniscience as well? Maybe I'll get you , though Erskine failed (hee, hee)!

====================================

 

Well, considering that we all deserve hell anyway....

Many Christians who believe in hell also believe in a gracious God, who has provided a fool-proof way of avoiding hell.

Did I say fool-proof? Yes, I think I did. In fact, it is a way made for wreckless fools, like myself, to follow.

 

===================================

wreckless fools who admit they are a reck.

=====================================

 

"To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." --Woody Allen

"I'm still an atheist, thank God." -- Luis Bunuel

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes." -- James Feibleman

"So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." - -George Bush

Fundamentalism means never having to say "I'm wrong." -- anonymous

"If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease!" -- Clark Adams

On a sidewalk near Portland State University someone wrote `Trust Jesus', and someone else wrote `But Cut the Cards'.

Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope. -- P.J. O'Rourke

"I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Mother Goose." -- Clarence Darrow

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalian and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis." -- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

"We're all in this alone." -- Lily Tomlin

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

"Theology is a study with no answers, because it has no subject matter."

 

That shoe fits me perfectly! I am no better than any atheist, just more forgiven, not that I've done anything to deserve that.

I try not to ask why. I just cup my hands under the fountain and drink.

 

I like the Orthodox Jewish view of hell...the LONGEST a just God will condemn anyone is twelve months. Since one's sentence depends upon how offensive one was in life, one says Kaddish for no more than ELEVEN months. Otherwise, the mourner is declaring that his parent was as evil as humanly possible!

Actually, in Reform we say Kaddish for twelve months for any parent regardless of sinfulness. The memory of the loved one is the point.

Nosborne, JD
(Who STRONGLY suspects that hell was created as a device to keep the ignorant masses in line!)